Fruit in a "hot" saison

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exc503

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I have a slight problem, I overshot my target OG by quite a few points, (i was under my estimate initially and tried to correct with boil off and way over shot) and the little yeast bastards have gone and done their job way too well and got down to the a nice low gravity. now the beer is very hot, its been in primary a week, style is a saison, was thinking of racking to secondary when gravity stabilizes and adding raspberries to hopefully bring some sweetness to coubter the alcohol. My question is will this do the job or will the yeast come back to life and just bring more alcohol to the party. (live and learn)

O.G. 1.068
current 1.007
ABV 8%
 

chickypad

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Fruit generally doesn't add any sweetness because the sugar ferments out. It doesn't really up the ABV because you're also adding water/volume with the fruit, though raspberries may add a little tartness. If you want the raspberry flavor then add them, but I probably wouldn't do it only to "fix" a beer. It's only a week old, let it finish, clean up and age a bit, it will likely mellow. Unless you're talking a lot of actual fusels, which tend to not age out as well.
 
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exc503

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its got the fusel flavor, but perhaps ill rack it to secondary and off yhe yeast/trub and let is sit another week and check it again. I was hoping for a flavor to help counter the excessively hot feeling. Its fermented at the yeast manufacturers recommended mid 70s maybe its too warm
 

xico

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Chickypad is spot on with everything said. Saison yeasts tend to put fusel alcohols into your beer more than others. Your brew process was less likely the culprit than I suspect fermentation temperature or yeast health. Fusels aren't generally repurposed but conditioning has helped beers I've had with this heat. They are often produced in the beginning of the fermentation process so you can limit production by keeping temps lower at first and raising the temp ceiling over several days. I regard temperature ranges from sources as maxes, to be reached by day 3-5 depending on the strain.

The yeast will likely ferment out the simple sugar in the fruit. I don't try to fix hot beers any longer. I bottle ones that are tolerable, stick them in the basement, and come back to them in 3-6 months. I would save my fruit for a beer that doesn't need to mask anything.

Edit: To share a tip from a few breweries.

Some breweries that work with farmhouse yeasts cool ferment and then warm bottle condition. Esterification can happen late in the process, but fusels can't. It's a great way to experiment with flavor contributions without the beer dumps.
 

flars

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I would give this one a lot more time in the primary like has been said. Let it mature before you take another SG sample for a taste.

Did you under pitch this one? Under pitching can bring out the hot alcohol taste. Which yeast was used?
 
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exc503

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it was yeast bay saison 2, with a starter so i dont believe under pitching was a problem. I held it at about 70 for the first couple of days then up to 75.
 

MrFancyPlants

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An alternative suggestion would be to add some orval dregs. I found their bret really charmed an 8% belgian style ale that was harsh to begin with after a couple months at around 70f. I used Belle Saison yeast for primary, and bretted in the keg.
 

beergolf

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Saison yeasts tend to put fusel alcohols into your beer more than others.
I disagree with this. I think it is exactly the opposite. Saison yeasts are the only yeast that does not produce fusels at high temps. I brew saisons often ( I have brewed about 75 saisons) and let them get very warm. Some even do best at very high temps. 3724 works best into the 80's or even up to 90. I have taken Belle Saison up to those temps and no hint of fusels. There are no other yeasts that can be fermented hot and not produce fusels. So saison yeasts are the least likely to produce fusels.

it was yeast bay saison 2, with a starter so i dont believe under pitching was a problem. I held it at about 70 for the first couple of days then up to 75.
At those temps I seriously doubt that you produced fusels. Your brew is only a week old and 8% abv. You probably are just tasting alcohol. Give the brew a little more time and it will be fine.
 
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exc503

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I'll leave it a while longer then, my initial plan was the bottle condition, but I'll hold off on that and decide later, maybe just keg it and store it a while.
 

hottpeper13

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This is my absolute favorite saison yeast, and mine are around 7% and fruity with just a slight spice. I primary 21 days and keg, condition for 14 days and hope the keg makes it 14 days....LOL Let it ride,saisons are one of a hand full of beers that are as good with some age as they are fresh.
 

xico

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I disagree with this.
I don't doubt you have had success with high temp fermentations. You are an experienced brewer and am aware of your attentiveness to the process.

I should have worded my explanation to say since saison yeast are commonly fermented at high temperatures, they are commonly associated with higher alcohol production as far as off-flavors go. That I do stand by, there is no shortage anecdotes of people getting hot flavors from saisons. Now whether they are conflating phenols and fusels is another issue but all ale yeast express the gene(s) to create the pathway for fusels. I don't doubt saisons produce much less than others, comparatively.

I ask in friendly discourse, could you share a couple conjectures as to how others would get higher alcohol production at high temperatures of fermentation? I have brewed with saison strains more than any other ale and I've learned over dozens of batches to ramp warmth later on. There is a lot of literature published associating higher temperatures with fusel production. Sadly, there is a not a lot that focuses on the taxonomic branch that comprises saisons.

I will have access to GC and HPLC this summer and I have 9 varieties of saison banked, perhaps I can run an experiment in June at two temp ranges and see what we get for three or four fusels. I am open to having my mind changed, it would be great to ferment warmer and faster with saisons. I look forward to your thoughts.
 

andrewmaixner

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I disagree with this. I think it is exactly the opposite. Saison yeasts are the only yeast that does not produce fusels at high temps. I brew saisons often ( I have brewed about 75 saisons) and let them get very warm. Some even do best at very high temps. 3724 works best into the 80's or even up to 90. I have taken Belle Saison up to those temps and no hint of fusels. There are no other yeasts that can be fermented hot and not produce fusels. So saison yeasts are the least likely to produce fusels. ...
Actually, the recently re"discovered" Scandinavian kviek yeasts appear to do so also. http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Kveik

One isolate of this is being marketed as "hothead" ale yeast. They claim it has temperature tolerance up to 62F-98F with minimal change in its "fruity ale" flavor/aroma profile: http://www.omegayeast.com/portfolio/14158-2/

(I haven't used it yet personally.)
 

beergolf

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Those may be an exception. I have not tried them yet but have heard that they can be fermented hot.
 

spittybug

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The solution to pollution is dilution.

Any beer that is "too hot" can be blended into another, more benign one and create a novel concoction. Tough to do with bottling, easier with kegs.
 

beergolf

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I should have worded my explanation to say since saison yeast are commonly fermented at high temperatures, they are commonly associated with higher alcohol production as far as off-flavors go. That I do stand by, there is no shortage anecdotes of people getting hot flavors from saisons. Now whether they are conflating phenols and fusels is another issue but all ale yeast express the gene(s) to create the pathway for fusels. I don't doubt saisons produce much less than others, comparatively.
That makes a lot of sense. Most brewers that are not used to brewing saisons do not understand that saison yeast can take the FG down to near 1.000, which will produce a much higher ABV than they expected. For example someone brews a 1.060 beer, expecting a FG of 1.012 or so. That will make the abv about 6.3%. But brew that same beer and have the FG go to 1.002 ( which can be very common with most saison yeasts) Now you get an ABV of 7.6%. Now you are getting into the range where alcohol flavor can be perceived as hot. Make a 1070 brew and the ABV will be really much higher, nearing 9%.

So brewers can mistake the higher alcohol in a saison with fusels. I am sensitive to fusels and the give me a great headache. Saison yeasts do not produce fusels at higher temps like other yeasts. There are a lot if people that often repeat the " Belgians like to be fermented hot"! but this is not true. Belgian yeasts ( not saison) will produce fusels when fermented hot. I know this from experience. I took the " Ferment Belgians warm" advice early in my brewing time and it produced a batch of beer that was rocket fuel. It was undrinkable. Belgian yeasts do like to be warmed up to finish, as do many yeasts, but should never start out warm. Saison yeast can be fermented warm from the satrt and not produce fusels. Especially something like WY 3724.
 
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exc503

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That makes a lot of sense. Most brewers that are not used to brewing saisons do not understand that saison yeast can take the FG down to near 1.000, which will produce a much higher ABV than they expected. For example someone brews a 1.060 beer, expecting a FG of 1.012 or so. That will make the abv about 6.3%. But brew that same beer and have the FG go to 1.002 ( which can be very common with most saison yeasts) Now you get an ABV of 7.6%. Now you are getting into the range where alcohol flavor can be perceived as hot. Make a 1070 brew and the ABV will be really much higher, nearing 9%.
This is exactly where I am, and the beer is about 2 weeks old now, will be back to look at it again tomorrow, will recheck the gravity. So after this discussion, I think i will leave it in the fermenter for a while, at least another week. But now this leads to at least two more questions then...
1. Should I rack it to secondary to get it off the yeast cake and trub to prevent off flavors?
2. my initial plan was to bottle, and use DME to carb, should I reconsider and keg and force carb it, which direction would make for a better beer at the end? I had read that re-energizing the yeast can help them to finish and clean up the beer.

This is my first Saison, so I plan to run through this one again, being more conscious of these variables.
 

beergolf

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No need to rack t a secondary. It will be fine, even for a few more weeks. I like to bottle my saisons. I use sugar to carb. I have never used DME to card anything so I can't speak about that.
 

Queequeg

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+1 on time. I doubt it is a temp or pitch rate issue assuming info you have provided is correct.

If it didn't improve after three weeks in the fermenter. I would go down the Brett route.
 
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exc503

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No need to rack t a secondary. It will be fine, even for a few more weeks. I like to bottle my saisons. I use sugar to carb. I have never used DME to card anything so I can't speak about that.
Bottling was my original plan, and I may still stick with that. Leaving it in the primary will give me more time to clean my bottles, especially since I haven't bottled since I got the kegs.
 

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