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joegbeer

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I'm basically looking to brew a passion fruit, orange, guava IPA. I've found some commercial beers in the style I'm going for, Terrapin Luau and Scofflaw Basement POG, but I've never tried them. I'm leaning toward using 4-6 lbs of puree. Seem like a sufficient amount?

Because of the puree displacement in the fermenter, I will probably need to split the 5.5 gallon batch size into two fermenters. I'm planning on adding the puree(s) directly into primary 5-7 gravity points before FG. Any suggestions on how to add the puree and minimize oxidation? I'm just using a stainless steel bucket for a fermenter.

Outside of Vintner aseptic purees are there any good puree manufactures I should be considering? I wish I could try the Perfect Puree (only pasteurized) , but because it needs to be refrigerated the overnight shipping plus the puree was nearly $200.

So obviously this beer is going to be expensive to make between puree and hops. Any opinions/experience with what kind of ratio between those fruit flavors? I don't think I want to do 2 lbs of each fruit. I'm concerned that the tartness of the passionfruit might be too strong. I'm kind of leaning towards 2lbs orange, 2lbs guava, 1lb passion fruit, or maybe even a 3-2-1 ratio.

I know this is a beer that will take a few brews to dial-in, just looking to leverage some experience from a fruit beer brewer. Thanks in advance.
 
I'm planning on adding the puree(s) directly into primary 5-7 gravity points before FG. Any suggestions on how to add the puree and minimize oxidation? I'm just using a stainless steel bucket for a fermenter.

Given your equipment/process, my suggestion would be to limit the time the bucket is open, add the fruit very gently (avoid splashing), and if you have a CO2 pressure setup, purge the headspace.

I'm kind of leaning towards 2lbs orange, 2lbs guava, 1lb passion fruit, or maybe even a 3-2-1 ratio.

Of those fruits, I've only used orange (in various forms including puree). One thing about orange...once its sugars are fermented (and thus sweetness removed), oranges can add noticeable bitterness. I'd consider dialing you bittering hops back a little.
 
VikeMan,

Thanks for the feedback on the Orange bitterness. I was planning to shoot for 45 IBUs. I wanted the fruit flavors to have a chance to shine and compliment the hop flavors.

General plan right now for hops:
Citra
Galaxy
El Dorado

Very small amount of hops at 60 minutes
4 oz around 5 minutes
4 oz whirlpool
6 oz dry hop (after puree ferments out)
 
For the orange, I would just add the zest of the orange. Either add it to the boil, or steep it in vodka for a few weeks (and add the vodka and zest to secondary).

Guava, add the fruit, and I don't know anything about passion fruit.

Why spend $200? Buy the fruit, blend in a blender (or just chop up). Freeze to break down the cell walls, and then add straight to the fermenter. Freezing does kill some bacteria and wild yeasts, but I would simmer the fruit in some water at ~150 F for 20 minutes to pasteurize it before adding.

Wait until main fermentation is done. Add to Primary, or rack to secondary (that is what I would do) and add fruit. Adding during active fermentation will just increase the amount of aromas that go out the airlock.

Don't worry about oxidation, the addition of sugars will help drive off the O2.
 
Don't worry about oxidation, the addition of sugars will help drive off the O2.

I wouldn't expect the yeast to use much of the introduced O2. The amount of sugars from the fruit will be small in relation to the post primary fermentation yeast population. The yeast won't need O2 to build sterols for cell walls because there's not enough sugar for exponential growth. And when they are just eating fructose (fruit sugar), they do it anaerobically.

It's true that once CO2 production starts, the "wind" will start to drive O2 out of the headspace, but some O2 will have already dissolved in the beer and oxidized some compounds.
 
When I made the Passionately Wet Dragon's Snatch (Dragonfruit, Passionfruit, Watermelon, and Prickly Pear fruit beer) I honestly added fruit to the boil, then I added the fruit again in secondary. Beer won 1st place in specialty beer at a brew festival in San Diego some years back. But with regards to oxidation, I wouldn't worry about it too much if you do it quickly without splashing your puree around. One other thought is to take your puree and add some sugar water and, on a stove top, boil it down to a fruit concentrate but that is overkill for what it sounds like you're trying to do.

Again, fruit in the boil for scent and fruit in secondary for taste. The scent is important because your senses perceive what you're about to taste and when your senses agree with your taste, your brain amplifies the flavor and it does a better job than one would think.

As far as puree amounts 3lbs is kind of the standard for one fruit flavor. Blackberry stout I did used 3lbs. Now, 9lbs of puree (one for each fruit) is a lot and the orange zest idea mentioned above is a better alternative than pureed Oranges, so now you're down to 6lbs. Passionfruit should be the focus as guava, if I am not mistaken, has a more defined taste to it, so you could use less. But if you want it even, the do 3lbs of each for now and see. :D

For hops Citra is a great idea, but cascade, golena, and Ekuanot are also options too instead of galaxy and El Dorado, which may not match the flavor profile you're looking for but I am not a big hop head, as I tend to go with sticking to a flavor profile strong when it comes to fruit beers as you don't want bitter or earthy hops to interfere with your fruit.

I would love to hear how this turns out for you.
 
Again, fruit in the boil for scent and fruit in secondary for taste. The scent is important because your senses perceive what you're about to taste and when your senses agree with your taste, your brain amplifies the flavor and it does a better job than one would think.

Why would using fruit in the boil provide more aroma ("scent") than in the secondary? I mean, yes, when you boil fruit it smells awesome, but you're smelling compounds that have volatilized...the stuff you're smelling isn't making it to the beer.
 
Why would using fruit in the boil provide more aroma ("scent") than in the secondary? I mean, yes, when you boil fruit it smells awesome, but you're smelling compounds that have volatilized...the stuff you're smelling isn't making it to the beer.

Yes and no. There is a strong reason why most microbreweries do this and it very much depends on the amount of fruit you're using, what kind of fruit, and when in the boil you're using it. 10 minutes or flame out is when I do it and if I flame out I let it sit till I transfer it into the carboy.

The same principle is with orange zest in the boil its just that the chemistry is different and you dont want to put the fruit in too soon or you get a stewing effect, which sometimes you want depending on the type of fruit beer your making. I wouldnt want to stew the fruit in an IPA.

During cicerone testing we did SMaSH beers with green apple, cherry, and raspberry added to the boil only. We had to guess what fruit was boiled in and not added to secondary as none of the three beers had fruit done in secondary, again only the boil. You can actually smell the fruit in there so there is aroma that carries from the fruit in the boil to the final beer.

From my experience doing it with my homebrew. I notice the aroma of fruit some in boil to be different than the aroma in secondary and when it's done in both it creates a more solid aroma and flavor profile with regards to the fruit. Again, this is my experience working with fruit beers in breweries and can only speak from what I have witnessed and done.
 
I've also witnessed and/or been involved with brewing fruit beers in several breweries, and with the exception of orange zest/peel, none of the fruit was added to the boil. So I'm not going to automatically accept that most microbreweries do it that way.

Thinking about this logically, if boiling makes the aroma more "solid," it must be one of two things:
1) It's changing something chemically. But if so, how is that a more authentic fruit aroma?
-or-
2) Greater extraction. But I find that had to fathom, given that I've tasted and smelled spent fruit after secondary, and it was pretty devoid of flavor/aroma.
 
I've also witnessed and/or been involved with brewing fruit beers in several breweries, and with the exception of orange zest/peel, none of the fruit was added to the boil. So I'm not going to automatically accept that most microbreweries do it that way.

Thinking about this logically, if boiling makes the aroma more "solid," it must be one of two things:
1) It's changing something chemically. But if so, how is that a more authentic fruit aroma?
-or-
2) Greater extraction. But I find that had to fathom, given that I've tasted and smelled spent fruit after secondary, and it was pretty devoid of flavor/aroma.

Regarding the breweries that do and don't do it that is all about anecdotal exposure so that is a fair enough point, I was just expressing that they used to only do it in secondary (I should have made that more clear) and their fruit beers didn't do well. When they started doing it in the boil too, fresh fruit, most of the local breweries (where I am there are 13 or so) started seeing better results.

Looking into why has more to do with your first inquiry. Chemical in a culinary sense. As far as my training and experience is on the subject authenticity is not what anyone is looking for in the direct sense. Adding the fruit in the boil adds more complexity to the fruit flavors and smells, even adding the nutrients of those fruits for the yeast to enjoy. It's not that it necessarily makes it more authentic, I dont find that as a way to define flavors, aromas, and tastes because some people, normally hipsters and peculiar purists, would argue that same thing. (Like you can't call your yeast champagne ywst because it was not cultured in that part of France..) those people can die in a fire for all I care.

To get back on point, adding in boil and in secondary makes the fruit notes more complex then just in secondary alone. Now, this varies from brewer to brewer and how much fruit you're willing to use as the more fruit the more it adds. But I would say that the majority of fruit in secondary and a half pound or a pound in boil is more than enough.

The stewing of fruit, usually dark fruit in dark beer, seems to add weight to the fruit notes as opposed to only lightly feeling the weight of fruit at the end. I do a Black berry stout once a year and tried it out myself. Upon adding to the boil, my frie.... lowlifes who drank the stout noticed that the fruit notes followed them all the way through the tasting of the beer. It smelled of black berry amd it stuck with them as they drank it. Not sweet or hyper fruit strong, it was just something they immediately pointed out to me as different when they tried it.

From that point on I looked further into it and started doing it with all my fruit beers that I do in summer. There was a difference... quantifying it is hard because people have different tastes and sensibilities to said tastes.

So, in summary, it seemed to keep the fruit notes throughout the tasting of the beer better, the aroma was more complexed making the fruit more distinct when on contrast to the hops (not outdoing the hops by any stretch of the imagination, but it would be better defined or seem better defined when compared as some hops can over power fruit flavors).

A neat culinary example is commercial orange juice. Most of them are bogus and they use orange flavored sweeteners and fake chemicals to give off the smell of oranges and your brain, in that moment, says "yum, orange juice". Real orange juice has a very different taste to it when you directly compare the two. Now some brands of oj are mixing a lot more fruit back into the mix (I believe during pasteurization) because it does a better job fooling the consumer that it is natural on when it is mostly a mixture of fake and real stuff.

This is just an example, I would not fully compare this to brewing but case in point, when fruit is in secondary only you miss out on the long term wart getting to know the fruit in the beer overall during the full fermentation. Nutrients from the fruit, flavors, aromas that come from the last bit of the boil due impart structure to the fruit profile in the beer. Secondary is absolutely the most important part of implementing fruit to a beer and if you're on a tight budget I'dsay only do it in secondary, but the complexity gained from the boil helps it out just enough that it, in my opinion, is worth doing.

The only thing I couldn't tell you is how much fruit to use with regards to different fruit amounts on how potent they are. If I have not used a fruit, let's say kiwis as I have not used it in a beer yet, I'd be reluctant to advise how much fruit to add. I've not directly used guava, but have heard from others it has a distinctive element to it's taste, so I would caution myself on how much I use. I have never even eaten guava, so now I am heading to the store to get one and try it sometime tomorrow. I've had it in beer, but not the actual fruit itself now that I think about it. XD

(I am out at work atm so I'm sorry if my replies are a little late)
 
I forgot to add that it would be a good idea to use gelatin to help clarify to prevent haziness a few days before kegging and be weary how long you keep the fruit in secondary so you dont get a fruit wine finish.
 
I forgot to add that it would be a good idea to use gelatin to help clarify to prevent haziness a few days before kegging and be weary how long you keep the fruit in secondary so you dont get a fruit wine finish.

I don't know what fruit wine finish means, but if the beer is going to be bottled, it needs to stay in the fermenter until all of the fruit's sugars are fermented out. This can take as long as (or longer than) the primary fermentation, depending on the fruit and how finely it was (or wasn't) smushed/chopped/pureed, partly because homogenization between the beer and the fruit's water/sugars isn't immediate.
 
Appreciate the discussion on this guys. I've continued to do more research. More on that below, first a few replies to all the feedback...

For the orange, I would just add the zest of the orange. Either add it to the boil, or steep it in vodka for a few weeks (and add the vodka and zest to secondary).

I agree. Orange zest would help me with several of the problems, like puree displacement in the fermenter/secondary as well as maybe not having to use two fermenters.

Buy the fruit, blend in a blender (or just chop up). Freeze to break down the cell walls, and then add straight to the fermenter. Freezing does kill some bacteria and wild yeasts, but I would simmer the fruit in some water at ~150 F for 20 minutes to pasteurize it before adding.

Wait until main fermentation is done. Add to Primary, or rack to secondary (that is what I would do) and add fruit. Adding during active fermentation will just increase the amount of aromas that go out the airlock.

I really like this suggestion Calder. However, I'm not going to take this approach (with this beer), because Vike's comment about tartness in the beer after the fruit sugars ferment out has been echoing in my mind while thinking about how to approach this. I would like to brew a different beer and use the approach your recommending instead of buying purees.

As far as puree amounts 3lbs is kind of the standard for one fruit flavor. Blackberry stout I did used 3lbs. Now, 9lbs of puree (one for each fruit) is a lot and the orange zest idea mentioned above is a better alternative than pureed Oranges, so now you're down to 6lbs. Passionfruit should be the focus as guava, if I am not mistaken, has a more defined taste to it, so you could use less. But if you want it even, the do 3lbs of each for now and see. :D

Appreciate you sharing with me your fruit beer brewing experience and some thoughts on the fruit ratios. I agree with both you and Calder that orange zest seemed like the right approach.

For hops Citra is a great idea, but cascade, golena, and Ekuanot are also options too instead of galaxy and El Dorado, which may not match the flavor profile you're looking for but I am not a big hop head, as I tend to go with sticking to a flavor profile strong when it comes to fruit beers as you don't want bitter or earthy hops to interfere with your fruit.

I am not a hop head either. I'm making this beer per a special request. I personally do like the flavor/aromas of Citra hops. Galaxy/El Dorado were recommended by local hop heads with the understanding that I was looking for hops that would compliment with more citrus/tropical/fruit flavors.


Update to my plans:

The aseptic fruit purees scare me the more I could find feedback on other people's experience using them. Lots of comments about stewed fruit flavors and not the freshness/brightness of the original fruit flavor. Vike's feedback about fruit sugars fermenting out and making it tart..

So as I continued to research the puree manufacturer options, I stumbled across this video with all of 1300 views: Amoretti Puree @ Tangled Roots Brewery. Especially check out the head brewer talking at 2:31.

Then I go look at Amoretti's craft puree section and find this: Amoretti POG Puree

In the Amoretti craft puree product brochure it recommends a 3oz to gallon ratio.

So I think my plan just because much simpler. One fermenter, cold crash, rack to keg on top of the Amoretti POG puree. Instead of using 15oz, since I've never used this puree I think I'm going to only use 10oz.
 
Yeah, I would start small too and the stewed fruit flavors is a thing both positive and negative depending on what you're doing and especially what fruit you're using. You also need to consider if you want some of the fruit to ferment with your beer, again, if that's what you want. From the sound of it you did your looking around for sure. I have not had issues with Aseptic fruit purees yet that anyone drinking any of the fruit beers I have made have noticed, including myself, but Amoretti makes a good puree and there is nothing wrong with using them. I think, at the end of the day, whenever you add more to ingredients and more steps you tend to make your beer more vulnerable to off flavors and infections. It's not because of the fruit itself, I think it tends to be the more you have going on, the more likely for something to go wrong whether it is a measurement, a temperature, when to add an ingredient in, etc...

Give it a try and let us know how it turns out! :D I'm always eager to hear results.
 
I've brewed quite a few fruit beers, (they are one of my favorite things to brew) and I always add fruit at flameout. I have added to fermenter, but honestly can't remember why I stopped doing it years ago. Adding at 10min or less left in the boil gives me very good results with grapefruit, cherries and blueberries. No worries about sanitation or gunk in the fermenter.
 
In the Amoretti craft puree product brochure it recommends a 3oz to gallon ratio.

So I think my plan just because much simpler. One fermenter, cold crash, rack to keg on top of the Amoretti POG puree. Instead of using 15oz, since I've never used this puree I think I'm going to only use 10oz.

Amoretti puree just arrived in the mail. Based on my plan above, 2oz per gallon is just under 1ml per 2 oz. I added 5ml of the puree to a commercial IPA. Tastes like a tropical party.

I'm going to brew this mad hopper tropical fruit explosion this coming weekend. Should be kegged and ready around the 1st of the year.

Since I'm adding 10oz of puree and sugars to the keg, I'm considering racking this beer on some potassium sorbate in case I bottle some off the kegs for friends. Bad idea?

Thanks all for the discussion and guidance. I will certainly provide a follow up on the results come January.
 
Update

Preface: I changed a lot of steps and equipment in my brewing process for this brew. New fermenter, etc. This was my first attempt at a pressurized transfer. To sum up kegging day it almost turned into a complete catastrophe. However in the end I was able to "save" the beer and ended up doing a siphon transfer.

Fermentation was a screamer. I used 2 packets of Imperial Flagship. 1.071 down to 1.014 (7.4% abv) in basically 4 days, then dry hopped it for 3ish days while I cold crashed it. Day 8 I was kegging. Decided against adding Potassium Metabisulfite or Potassium Sorbate since it will basically be in a keg that I store at lagering temperatures.

After some additional taste testing, I decided not to overdue the POG puree and went with 7.5 oz of the Amoretti POG puree in the keg.

Side note: Local bar had the Atwater POG IPA on tap. I stopped by to try it. Very light POG flavor, but it was also a crystal clear IPA. I'm guessing they just used the extract flavoring.

After force carbing for a week, here's my assessment:
  • As expected the POG puree color, a deep orange, changed the overall SRM darkness of a standard IPA.
  • Very cloudy/hazy, more than I liked. I'm not a big IPA fan in general, so I said screw it and added some gelatin fining and purged the keg. Cloudiness improved over the next 3-4 days, much better, but still far from crystal clear.
  • Comparing the taste only to the Atwater POG that I've had and not a blind taste test by any means, I prefered the IPA POG flavor that was in my beer. Overall, I thought it turned out as a solid beer.
  • I "THINK" I used a good amount of the puree. My beer was definitely stronger POG flavor than the Atwater, but I don't think it was overpowering. I don't often brew IPA, but I felt that the POG flavor/aroma really overshined most of the aroma you would normally get out of an IPA. I don't have a great sense of smell and it was hard for me to distinguish the 5oz of dry hops from the POG puree.
  • Most of my standard brews have fairly good head retention and lacing. Not the best, but not noticeably lacking. The head on this beer dissipated fairly quickly and there was not much lacing. I'm guessing that's due to the puree?

True test comes in 3 weeks when my friends/critics are in town to try it out.
 
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