From TTB standpoint, is this cider or beer?

[dash14251]

okay first off lets just say someone is planning to bottle and sell carbonated hard cider, yes legally.

the TTB considers any carbonated hard cider to be champagne and applies a federal tax of about $3/gallon. beer is taxed at about $.23/gallon.

i understand beer can be made using fruit as well as malt and hops. i am wondering if anyone here is familiar with this issue and at what point would this graff be considered a beer in order to avoid the rediculous champagne tax?

do any of you have a link to a ttb.gov page where i could find out? i have read all over their website and either cant find it or have found it and dont understand it.

thanks for your help!

 

[Revvy]

I think there's an email contact link on the ttb site, you'll best have to ask directly. Or you could try asking this at http://probrewer.com/

This question is really out of our league...

 

[SPLASTiK]

I think if half the fermentables come from apple juice they consider it cider.

I'd just e-mail the TTB and ask... Or use the search engine on their site for their definition of cider and beer.

 

[dash14251]

okay, well the definition of a malt beverage (beer, ale, whatever) is:
-25% of fermentables coming from malted barley
-having 7.5 lbs of hops per 100 barrels

thats the basics. BUT, what i am not sure about is what are fermentables? the sugar only?

if that is the case i just need to know the sugar content of, say, a given malt extract then determine the sugar content of the apple juice and make sure im over 25% being sugar from the malt. does this sound right?


i know the abv will be high probably, but i can mess with that later or crash for some sweetness.

 

[Revvy]

So have you contacted the ttb or folks on probrewer yet? I don't want to belabor the point but this is a hobby website. 99.99% of the folks on here never have or never will deal with these kinds of legal semantics. We`ll never be putting our stuff up before government scrutiny.

We`re not your best source for information. Anything we may have to say about this is gonna be speculation.

Why don`t you just take this question to the places that deal with professional issues like this all the time? We know about the brewing aspect of making beer for personal consumption. But for the most part we`re hobbyists.

 

[dash14251]

haha, wow man dont give yourself too much credit. or this is your way of making sure none of your followers answer my question... kind of creepy but its the internet and everyone is welcome!

i just figured a homebrew website would have someone familiar with the term fermentables.

go braves

 

[malkore]

The issue is NOBODY here wants to give you an answer and thus claim the liability when the TTB arrests you for being naughty because you listened to us.
Its the government...they twist the rules as they see fit so they're the only ones that can accurately answer your question in an accountable way.

 

[Revvy]

haha, wow man dont give yourself too much credit. or this is your way of making sure none of your followers answer my question... kind of creepy but its the internet and everyone is welcome!

i just figured a homebrew website would have someone familiar with the term fermentables.

go braves

WTF???

I try to help and you give me this grief? I ****ing tried to help you from day one.

No, it's that since the majority of us on here are hobbyists, , we're not trying to sell ****, so we don't need to know crap like this....And if we did, we'd go to those two sources anyway. You were given links to the Professional version of this site, where people who ARE actually selling their beer/wines hang out, and give each other advice, that they deal with on a daily basis. We don't have the answers, they do, or the TTB will.

It's kinda like the difference between building model planes and being an airforce mechanic, it's too different worlds. There's some basic understanding, but it's like night and day how far apart they are. What you are asking about is tied into having to define the drink for taxation and sales purposes, which since it is illegal to sell homebrew, we don't have to deal with stuff like that...ergo, we don't know the answer.

It's really that simple, you want professional information, you seek out the wisdom of professionals.....

Which we aren't. WTF is so hard for you to grasp about this idea?

Seriously, if we had the info, we'd have given it to you already. But we know where the info is, and I and other's gave it to you.

 

[doctorRobert]

Well I'm not a rocket scientist, but if it contains malted grains, it might pass for beer. If it's fermented apple juice, it'll be a cider. If you're mixing the both together, send me some and I'll taste it. Thats the only way for me to be able to give an honest answer.

As a hobbyist, I had no choice but to give a smart ass answer.

edit: But seriously, go check out probrewer.com or better yet contact TTB. This is your business we're talking about. Don't take the advice of some stranger on the internet.

 

[dash14251]

dang, yall were just waiting for some drama. haha you may have been bottling it up and just popped the top on the drama. maybe you could sell it!

i know you dont really think i was going to base any business decision on what you guys tell me, so why do you get all worked up? calm down fellas.

and to Ted Kazinsky up there, please pay your taxes

 

[bwomp313]

beerder

 

[tribble222]

okay first off lets just say someone is planning to bottle and sell carbonated hard cider, yes legally.

the TTB considers any carbonated hard cider to be champagne and applies a federal tax of about $3/gallon. beer is taxed at about $.23/gallon.

i understand beer can be made using fruit as well as malt and hops. i am wondering if anyone here is familiar with this issue and at what point would this graff be considered a beer in order to avoid the rediculous champagne tax?

do any of you have a link to a ttb.gov page where i could find out? i have read all over their website and either cant find it or have found it and dont understand it.

thanks for your help!

I'm also looking to sell carbonated hard cider... How do you know the TTB considers carbonated hard cider to be champagne? The tax table says "hard cider" is .226 and doesn't specify uncarbonated. When people say hard cider they always mean carbonated hard cider, don't they?

 

[remilard]

When people say hard cider they always mean carbonated hard cider, don't they?

No. In the context of traditional products in England or the US I would assume uncarbonated unless told otherwise, just as with any other traditional wine. Most industrial ciders (Magners, Woodchuck etc) are carbonated.

 

[dash14251]

theres more to look at than just that chart. i spoke with some guys that have a hard cider startup in the northwest and they were telling me that they sell it flat to avoid the crazy taxes. washington state considers carbonated hard cider to be hard cider, but the federal government does not and this is the fed taxes we are talking about. you will have a tough time practicing in alabama as i think homebrewing is illegal there. and with the 3-tier system in georgia and most states makes it almost impossible to start-up anything. theres a documentary out there called Beer Wars and i would recommend you watch it to learn about distributors and such. it will make you hate anheuser busch and miller-coors (if you dont already!).

ive heard that hornsbys gets around this by just putting grain alcohol in apple juice, therefore making it a malt liquor. craziness.

 

[tribble222]

Ah very interesting. Here is the response I got from the TTB:

Hard cider (the kind eligible for the $0.226 tax rate) is defined in 26 U.S.C. 5041(b)(6) as a still wine - that is also in the 27 CFR 24.10 definition of hard cider. If the wine is effervescent (sparkling or carbonated) it does not get the hard cider tax rate, and has to be taxpaid at the effervescent rate. The tax rate for effervescent wine depends on whether the effervescent wine is artificially carbonate (tax rate is $3.30) or is defined as sparkling which is effervescent process is completely through a secondary fermentation of the wine in a closed container (tax rate is $3.40). You can find the definitions of effervescent, artificially carbonate, and sparkling wine at 27 CFR 24.10.

I'll have to look into doing something like Hornsbys then...

 

[tribble222]

Just picked up a bottle of Blackthorn Cider from my local Trader Joe's and it lists the ingredients as: Fermented apple juice, carbonated water, sugar, malic acid, sulfites to preserve freshness. I wonder if they are getting around the tax by adding carbonated water instead of directly carbonating the cider? I think I only paid $3.50 or so for 1 liter.

 

[dash14251]

i think theyre an "import" so im not sure what our feds think of them english boys as far as how its is taxed. good point tho

 

[tribble222]

You're right, it's imported. The bottle of Ace perry I have has those same 2 ingredients though, and that's from California.