Fresh grain flavour

[Ksub123]

I was curious if anyone knew how to get a really distinct grain flavour in their beer.

I know grainy is a descriptor that some people try to avoid but i love the smell of the grain before mash and I want to carry that over into the finished beer.

Maybe unmalted barley?

 

[Sammy86]

I was curious if anyone knew how to get a really distinct grain flavour in their beer.

I know grainy is a descriptor that some people try to avoid but i love the smell of the grain before mash and I want to carry that over into the finished beer.

Maybe unmalted barley?

Your base malt needs to be something substantial like a Two-Row, Maris Otter or Golden Promise...no Pilsner it won't give you the malty/bready at least IMO.

Then you can add something like a Victory Malt, Munich Malt, Vienna or a biscuit malt to supplement the flavor to really bring out the maltiness in the beer.

Hope this helps!

 

[dwhite60]

I get a lot out of white wheat malt. Opening that bottle smells like bread.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Locking in that fresh grain flavour is exactly the intention of hot side low oxygen processes. Although I personally didn't care one way or the other for the flavour it brought to the beer from my own LoDo endeavours, I can say it definitely does change the flavour and helps with the 'fresh grain' profile. Anyone who really likes fresh German lagers will appreciate the flavours locked in by low oxygen processes.

 

[bracconiere]

I was curious if anyone knew how to get a really distinct grain flavour in their beer.

I know grainy is a descriptor that some people try to avoid but i love the smell of the grain before mash and I want to carry that over into the finished beer.

Maybe unmalted barley?

thanks for asking! i just luck out once in a while....would love to know how to get it every time!

 

[Maxkling]

Biscuit or Victory malts are probably what you are looking for.

Not sure about unmalted barley. I’d have to chew on it, in my head in thinking grainy, green, strawish flavors, but who knows until you try it.

I do know I love some Victory malt, that stuff is flavorful.

 

[bracconiere]

Biscuit or Victory malts are probably what you are looking for.

Not sure about unmalted barley. I’d have to chew on it, in my head in thinking grainy, green, strawish flavors, but who knows until you try it.

I do know I love some Victory malt, that stuff is flavorful.

hmm, buiscuit? you just gave me an idea for something to try for my next batch.....i'm going to take 5lb's of my 20lbs of homemalt, and roast it in a 450f oven for ~3-5 minutes.....until fragrant the chefs say!

(i hope my hijack, is helping not hurting the conversation! )

 

[Sammy86]

hmm, buiscuit? you just gave me an idea for something to try for my next batch.....i'm going to take 5lb's of my 20lbs of homemalt, and roast it in a 450f oven for ~3-5 minutes.....until fragrant the chefs say!

(i hope my hijack, is helping not hurting the conversation! )

We all know you don't care either way! You're using this as a marketing tool for when you start your own malt house!

 

[MrPowers]

You need this website: Methods of the Low Oxygen Brewhouse - Low Oxygen Brewing

Edit: a lot of people are recommending Victory/Biscuit malt, while those are good malts, they are not going to give you the fresh grain character you're looking for.

 

[bracconiere]

when you start your own malt house!

@grampamark could grow it, and i could malt it.....we both could find someone around here to brew it!

edit: and @AJinJacksonville , gave your malt a quick soak today, should be chitting by days end!

 

[AJinJacksonville]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I can't wait!

 

[Maxkling]

You need this website: Methods of the Low Oxygen Brewhouse - Low Oxygen Brewing

Edit: a lot of people are recommending Victory/Biscuit malt, while those are good malts, they are not going to give you the fresh grain character you're looking for.

What would you suggest for a fresh grain character? I would agree the Biscuit or Victory would end up very toasty, bready, malt forward. A green grainy I think would be difficult to achieve let alone hard to balance.

For the OP have you ever drank Spotted Cow? It’s been a while but for what I recall it was the greenest grainy beer I’ve had, and I really worth looking to get your hands on. I think they use a lot of flaked barley.

 

[day_trippr]

"It's a trap! Run for your...sanity!"

Cheers!

 

[Gnomebrewer]

"It's a trap! Run for your...sanity!"

Cheers!

I had the same thought, but took the bait anyway!

 

[Ksub123]

@Maxkling
I have not had spotted cow, but I'm here in Ontario where the beer overlords decide what we will drink so that's generally my answer.

I've used both victory and biscuit in beers with relatively complex grain bills and found that they added a rich maltiness similar to Munich. I would describe that as bakery flavours. Am I wrong?

 

[Ksub123]

You need this website: Methods of the Low Oxygen Brewhouse - Low Oxygen Brewing

This is what I was afraid of . why can't there just be a malt that gives me this flavour?

 

[Yesfan]

So if I wanted to add Victory, Vienna, Munich, or Biscuit malt to my grain bill to get that "fresh malt flavor" what percentage of the grain should I shoot for? I've not seen that mentioned and figured that would be kinda important when formulating a recipe.

 

[Maxkling]

So if I wanted to add Victory, Vienna, Munich, or Biscuit malt to my grain bill to get that "fresh malt flavor" what percentage of the grain should I shoot for? I've not seen that mentioned and figured that would be kinda important when formulating a recipe.

Well Vienna and Munich can be used as a base malt or as an adjunct. While Biscuit and Victory should be just adjuncts and I’ve used them around 5-10 % and I’ve seen them used as high as 20% in some recipes.

Also to me a fresh grain flavor is bready, it seems the OP was looking for something greener which I don’t think your going to get.

 

[MrPowers]

What would you suggest for a fresh grain character? I would agree the Biscuit or Victory would end up very toasty, bready, malt forward. A green grainy I think would be difficult to achieve let alone hard to balance.

Retaining the fresh grain flavor naturally found in malt is strictly a result of process. It doesn’t matter what grain you start with or try to add, if your process is wrong, you won’t make any progress.

This is what I was afraid of . why can't there just be a malt that gives me this flavour?

Getting started with LoOx brewing isn’t that difficult. It requires a few more water chemistry additions and a few simple process changes. The execution can be tricky so it usually requires a few tries before you see the benefits. After that, you can decide if it’s worth making any system changes to make the process earlier. If it was as easing as just adding a different grain, everyone would do it.

 

[whovous]

This is what I was afraid of . why can't there just be a malt that gives me this flavour?

I feel your pain, but I fear that if you want the freshest grain flavor, you've got to use the freshest brewing techniques, and that means LODO. OTOH, folks have gone down the LODO rabbit hole and never returned, so you've got to decide just how important that fresh grain taste really is.

Me? I make mostly IIPAs and pay little attention to LODO. I figure if I throw in enough hops I can cover up almost anything.

 

[Ksub123]

Retaining the fresh grain flavor naturally found in malt is strictly a result of process. It doesn’t matter what grain you start with or try to add, if your process is wrong, you won’t make any progress.




Getting started with LoOx brewing isn’t that difficult. It requires a few more water chemistry additions and a few simple process changes. The execution can be tricky so it usually requires a few tries before you see the benefits. After that, you can decide if it’s worth making any system changes to make the process earlier. If it was as easing as just adding a different grain, everyone would do it.

I just started reading through the link you posted and most of it is pretty easy. A few steps require relatively costly equipment. For everyone who has gone low DO, what changes made the biggest difference for you?

Incidentally with my last batch I got my grain day of, instead of the day before as i often do, accidentally boiled my mash water then and cooled down to mash temp, added it to the mash tun and dumped my grain on top rather than spraying water onto the grain. And this was the cleanest malt profile I've had in a beer despite issues during fermentation.

 

[MrPowers]

I just started reading through the link you posted and most of it is pretty easy. A few steps require relatively costly equipment. For everyone who has gone low DO, what changes made the biggest difference for you?

Incidentally with my last batch I got my grain day of, instead of the day before as i often do, accidentally boiled my mash water then and cooled down to mash temp, added it to the mash tun and dumped my grain on top rather than spraying water onto the grain. And this was the cleanest malt profile I've had in a beer despite issues during fermentation.

Most noticeable improvements were when I implemented the following:
1. Deoxygenating Strike water + underletting mash
2. Spunding
3. Using Sulfites/Brewtan B
4. Using soft boils
5. Transferring and stirring gently
6. Making sure I was pitching active and healthy yeast (ie. Vitality starters)

I knocked out a Festbier yesterday that tasted like a fresh box of Honey Nut Cheerios coming out of the mash tun.

 

[jclark248]

Your base malt needs to be something substantial like a Two-Row, Maris Otter or Golden Promise...no Pilsner it won't give you the malty/bready at least IMO.

Then you can add something like a Victory Malt, Munich Malt, Vienna or a biscuit malt to supplement the flavor to really bring out the maltiness in the beer.

Hope this helps!

Rye has a distinct note, if you’d like to experiment with that. A good 20% of your bill will do the trick.

 

[Sammy86]

Rye has a distinct note, if you’d like to experiment with that. A good 20% of your bill will do the trick.

Rye is more spicy then bready IMO...you also do not need a lot of it...the one time i used Rye it was 10% and it gave it a nice little something

 

[bracconiere]

Rye is more spicy then bready IMO.

true, but i REALLY love a good sour dough rye loaf!

and if it just so happens to pour from a keg into a glass, and be slightly intoxicating, all the better!

 

[wepeeler]

Your base malt needs to be something substantial like a Two-Row, Maris Otter or Golden Promise...no Pilsner it won't give you the malty/bready at least IMO.

Then you can add something like a Victory Malt, Munich Malt, Vienna or a biscuit malt to supplement the flavor to really bring out the maltiness in the beer.

Hope this helps!

Try Bohemian Floor Malted Pilsner malt. It's like drinking a light cracker. It's AMAZING in light beers.

 

[Bilsch]

Most noticeable improvements were when I implemented the following:
1. Deoxygenating Strike water + underletting mash
2. Spunding
3. Using Sulfites/Brewtan B
4. Using soft boils
5. Transferring and stirring gently
6. Making sure I was pitching active and healthy yeast (ie. Vitality starters)
I knocked out a Festbier yesterday that tasted like a fresh box of Honey Nut Cheerios coming out of the mash tun.

This is a really good list and covers the method well. I would just like to add one more very important thing for getting the best malty grain flavor and that is attenuation. Fresh grain and delicate hop flavors hide beneath sweet, poorly attenuated beer. And I don't meant 1.010-12 dry, I mean 1.006-7 dry.

 

[TheMadKing]

Grain before the mash smells very different from grain IN the mash. I think you lodo guys are barking up the wrong tree here.

OP I would suggest 10% red wheat. Wheat in general has a flavor more people associate with the smell of raw grain kernels. It smells like driving through a grain field in August, rather than like fresh wort.

 

[Ksub123]

It smells like driving through a grain field in August

Well I'm sold. I've never noticed red wheat at the lhbs. Do you find that there's a significant difference from white wheat?

 

[TheMadKing]

Well I'm sold. I've never noticed red wheat at the lhbs. Do you find that there's a significant difference from white wheat?

It has a much stronger "wheat" flavor than white wheat. You can order it from MoreBeer or any of the larger online suppliers.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Grain before the mash smells very different from grain IN the mash. I think you lodo guys are barking up the wrong tree here.

Pot calls kettle black.... how do you know that?

Your grain selection isn't going to do a thing for flavor if there's a poor mashing process. What MrPowers outlined above is correct. It's not complicated. No fancy or special equipment is required. Just a little focus on some minor process tweaks.

It's foolish to think the magic bullet is a red grain.

 

[TheMadKing]

Pot calls kettle black.... how do you know that?

Your grain selection isn't going to do a thing for flavor if there's a poor mashing process. What MrPowers outlined above is correct. It's not complicated. No fancy or special equipment is required. Just a little focus minor process tweaks

It's foolish to think the magic bullet is a red grain.

I said "I Think" as in "its my opinion". If you're going to attack someone for offering an opinion on a public forum you better be standing on pure unadulterated facts.

If your grain selection does not alter your flavor with poor mashing process then you shouldn't be able to tell the difference between a stout and a pilsner made by a brewer who doesn't mash "properly". That's an absurd suggestion.

The reason why I have that opinion is: The OP said that he was looking for the flavor of grain BEFORE the mash. Now most of the time people looking for the lodo "it" are describing the flavor of fresh wort, which is grain IN the mash. Those are different flavors IMO. I could be wrong, and thats fine. You are not the adjudicator of truth here, OP is.

It is a fact that red wheat has a stronger "wheat" flavor than white wheat.
It is also a fact that adding wheat to a beer will impart a different flavor than a beer without wheat in it, regardless of the mashing process.
I offered a suggestion to the OP based on my interpretation of his original question, which was different from everyone who latched on to the phrase "distinct grain flavor", and then ignored the rest of his description.

You can't prove me wrong, and you can't prove yourself right and the reverse is true as well. Just let OP read the opinions and make his own decision without attacking anyone. Now go bug off and make beer your own way.

 

[Vale71]

It's foolish to think the magic bullet is a red grain.

And it's foolish to think that tinkering with the mash according to a bunch of lies will make your beer better but to each their own, right? After all if the power of self-suggestion works so well for the LODO crowd why shouldn't it work as well or even better for anybody else?

 

[JohnSand]

We all want to make great beer, let's keep the discussion civil.

 

[MrPowers]

We all want to make great beer, let's keep the discussion civil.

I agree. We also all have different thresholds of effort that we are willing to put in to make that happen. There’s nothing wrong with that.

 

[cmac62]

I haven't tried it, but the first thing that came to my mind is a no boil beer. Mash, chill, pitch, that should get you something different anyway.

 

[Bilsch]

I haven't tried it, but the first thing that came to my mind is a no boil beer. Mash, chill, pitch, that should get you something different anyway.

Yea, an infection.

 

[beersk]

Locking in that fresh grain flavour is exactly the intention of hot side low oxygen processes. Although I personally didn't care one way or the other for the flavour it brought to the beer from my own LoDo endeavours, I can say it definitely does change the flavour and helps with the 'fresh grain' profile. Anyone who really likes fresh German lagers will appreciate the flavours locked in by low oxygen processes.

For what it's worth, I've never had a German lager (tap, can, bottle) where I've tasted specifically fresh grain. I get more of an almost malted character, kind of like that flavor I get in malted milk balls or malts from DQ. A similar character to that. To me, that isn't fresh grain, more just straight up MALT. I'm not sure that's what the OP is after. And I feel many people who are interested in low O2 brewing thinking that they're going to get that in their beers. It's a little different than that in my experience over the last 4 years with low O2 brewing. Sure, it makes a difference, but will you like that difference? That's the real question.

 

[Jayjay1976]

This is what I was afraid of . why can't there just be a malt that gives me this flavour?

There is, it's called Munich light, try brewing a smash recipe with some Hallertauer to get a good idea of what it offers as a base malt. I'd recommend 1.050-1.060 as a good target OG.

 

[Ksub123]

Hmm, classic brewing discussion.
"Do this, it works 100% of the time."
"I tried that, it doesn't make a difference."

I guess its all a matter of taste. Ill try the easy changes for the low oxygen method. It seems like it will be beneficial regardless. But I really think there is another piece to this puzzle.