Forgot to add sugar to Saison

[korndog]

Hey folks
I just brewed my first Saison and forgot to add simple sugar to the boil. I hit my gravity by remedial steps not realizing that I had forgotten the cane sugar until today. The beer has been actively fermenting for 24 hours. I am concerned that i will have issues fully attenuating. I am thinking to let the yeast go as far as it will, and add US-05 to finish if needed. I am also planning on adding Brett to this beer.

1. Since I am adding Brett, do I need to worry about not fully attenuating with the sacch. strain?

2. Can simple sugars be added to the fermenter?

3. What kind of attenuation should I expect using WY Farmhouse yeast with no simple sugars added. Mash temp was 147F. Fermentation temperature will ramp up to about 80F. OG 1.070.

 

[kmlavoy]

1.- Adding sugars and full attenuation don't really have anything to do with each other. Your yeast should attenuate just fine, assuming you did the things you would normally do to get healthy yeast (aeration, starter, etc.). Not adding the sugar will mean, you just aren't going to get as much alcohol. Which, in a saison, is not really a bad thing. Saisons these days are starting to be turbocharged to be more like dubbels, but historically, they were a lower alcohol beer. The Brett should clean up anything your first yeast doesn't get to, and will definitely add some character.

2.- Simple sugars can be added to the fermenter. There was a great article about brewing sugars in the recent Zymurgy, and that is exactly what he does in the sugar experiment (I think he added his to the secondary).

3.- Attenuation is more a function of where your mash temps and grist makeup than fermentation temps. Sort of. I wouldn't recommend letting your yeast go quite so high temperature-wise (especially if you decide to add the sugars). The fermentation temp does not mean that your yeast are doing a better job. It just means they're running hotter. That can lead to off flavors. I let one get out of control once, and the solvent flavors pretty much made it undrinkable. Luckily it was a one gallon batch, so I only had to pour 8 beers down the drain. To get back to your question, apparent attenuation is going to depend a lot on whether or not you add those sugars. Given the 147 F mash temp, you should at least expect 80%. Make sure to leave it in the primary long enough to let it finish.

Whatever you do: watch it closely and take good notes. If it turns out in a way you didn't like, you'll have learned plenty of things to go back and make improvements. Saisons are among my favorite beers to brew, as there isn't such rigid guidelines as far as ingredients. You're using the right yeast, so it should be fine.

 

[korndog]

1.- Adding sugars and full attenuation don't really have anything to do with each other. Your yeast should attenuate just fine, assuming you did the things you would normally do to get healthy yeast (aeration, starter, etc.). Not adding the sugar will mean, you just aren't going to get as much alcohol. Which, in a saison, is not really a bad thing. Saisons these days are starting to be turbocharged to be more like dubbels, but historically, they were a lower alcohol beer. The Brett should clean up anything your first yeast doesn't get to, and will definitely add some character.

2.- Simple sugars can be added to the fermenter. There was a great article about brewing sugars in the recent Zymurgy, and that is exactly what he does in the sugar experiment (I think he added his to the secondary).

3.- Attenuation is more a function of where your mash temps and grist makeup than fermentation temps. Sort of. I wouldn't recommend letting your yeast go quite so high temperature-wise (especially if you decide to add the sugars). The fermentation temp does not mean that your yeast are doing a better job. It just means they're running hotter. That can lead to off flavors. I let one get out of control once, and the solvent flavors pretty much made it undrinkable. Luckily it was a one gallon batch, so I only had to pour 8 beers down the drain. To get back to your question, apparent attenuation is going to depend a lot on whether or not you add those sugars. Given the 147 F mash temp, you should at least expect 80%. Make sure to leave it in the primary long enough to let it finish.

Whatever you do: watch it closely and take good notes. If it turns out in a way you didn't like, you'll have learned plenty of things to go back and make improvements. Saisons are among my favorite beers to brew, as there isn't such rigid guidelines as far as ingredients. You're using the right yeast, so it should be fine.

Kmlavoy

Thanks you for answering my post in such detail. I really appreciate the input. I am starting to enjoy this style and just feeling my way in brewing it. I will check out the Zymurgy article. I think I will just let the yeast go and back the finishing temps off a bit. Given that my gravity was ok and I will be adding Brett, I will not bother with the sugars in this batch.

Now my decision will be to pitch Roeselare or straight Brett on this beer. Do you have any opinion regarding that?

 

[kmlavoy]

Alas, I have not used Brett myself yet. I've read up on it a bit, but no personal experience. I'd be interested in seeing what some other people say.

The one thing I have read is that your sanitation practices need to be absolutely air tight. If you don't clean your stuff properly after using it, it can run wild in your brewery. Some people have whole sets of hoses and racking equipment specifically for handling it.

 

[FlyGuy]

I'll offer some slightly different advice. Take it for what it's worth.

1. Since I am adding Brett, do I need to worry about not fully attenuating with the sacch. strain?

Don't count on the Brett to attenuate your beer much further -- it is pretty slow to develop, and doesn't achieve much fermentation overall. Your best bet is to rely on the sacch. yeast to ferment out your beer. And yes, adding the sugar is to help get the beer to attenuate fully. Unlike malt sugars, simple sugars will ferment completely, increasing your overall attenuation.

2. Can simple sugars be added to the fermenter?

Yes, definitely. If you are worried about sanitization issues, it can be boiled like priming sugar first. There is always some debate about the best time to add sugar. Some swear that sugar additions are best added incrementally during fermentation to avoid shocking the yeast wit a high osmotic environment, while others insist you should just add it to the boil kettle. In your situation, you could easily do a compromise (since you already missed the boil) and add it while fermenting. I suggest adding it just as krausening peaks and starts to fall off.

3. What kind of attenuation should I expect using WY Farmhouse yeast with no simple sugars added. Mash temp was 147F. Fermentation temperature will ramp up to about 80F. OG 1.070.

You may have to rely on your yeast manufacturer's instructions for this. But for a Saison, you want to shoot for at least 75% before the sugar addition (those Saisons should be REALLY dry). With the sugar addition, it should dry out even more since nearly 100% of it will be fermented to alcohol.

Assuming your yeast is Wyeast 3724 Belgian Saison, you are likely going to need to ramp up your temperature once fermentation begins to subside, or else it will stall out at a higher gravity than you want. The Wyeast site says that it will ferment up to 90F, which is pretty warm! But it may be necessary to get it into the 80's to make sure it doesn't stall out. Don't worry -- nearly all of the off flavours associated with high fermentation are produced at the beginning of fermentation, not the end -- in fact, keeping the yeast active will help to clean up a lot of the off flavours produced earlier on.

Best of luck!

 

[Reverend JC]

The brett will dry that thing out plenty

 

[korndog]

Flyguy and Rev.

Thanks for the input. Intuitively, I thought the sugar addition to the ferment would assist attenuation. I'm not sure if I should do it at his point or give this yeast a shot, resorting to remedial pitching if necessary with US-05.

I'm using WY 3726 btw, which is not the Dupont strain, I understand. It's typically used at lower temperatures than 3724.

Ok, maybe I will ad some simple sugars after all.

Decisions, decisions.

 

[Reverend JC]

well with an OG of 1.070 im not sure


When talking about adding simple sugars to dry out a beer those need to be concidered in the OG of the beer. Does that make sense. If you add the sugar now it will raise your OG up to lets say 1.074 and that .04 will get eaten yes, but you still have your intial 1.070 to deal with. Give that strain some time to work its magic and remember it will stall on you.

If you are in the 1.20s mid to low range forget about the other yeasts and toss in the brett. It will, if given enough time, dry that baby out.


I love a good saison! and brett too. Toss in some lacto, get crazy:rockin:

 

[FlyGuy]

I tend to agree. The sugar will dry out the beer perceptibly, but it won't necessarily help the yeast to ferment out any of the malt sugars. So if you have attenuation problems before you add the sugar, you can't expect it to necessarily improve attenuation (but as I said, it will still add to the perception of dryness in the beer).

Perhaps a better way to have approached this (as Rev JC states), one could have instead taken their 1.070 recipe, pulled out some of the base malt and replaced the fermentables with an appropriate amount (by SG) of simple sugar. This technique WILL ensure a lower FG because there are actually fewer malt sugars present in the beer. Healthy yeast will always ferment out nearly all simple sugars, but not so with malt sugars, so there are fewer 'stumbling blocks' in the fermentation process if the recipe has a lower percentage of malt.

And yes, given enough time the Brett will help attenuate the beer. Just be prepared to store it for a long time at appropriate temperatures (not cold) and let it do its thing. But I am not sure that a Saison is a type of beer that ages particularly well -- I defer to those with more experience brewing this style.

The yeast addition is also worth a shot, if fermentation stalls. I would try temperature and gently resuspending the yeast in the fermenter first. But if that doesn't work, make a mini-starter (a must for liquid yeast) or rehydrate well if using dry yeast, and see what happens (and be patient -- those yeasts won't perform that well in a nearly fermented beer of that gravity).

 

[korndog]

Ok, I'm getting that patience might be the secret here. No rush, I have lot's of beers to brew. Understood on the gravity/sugar issue; makes sense.

Cheers; I'll update the thread as I progress.

 

[korndog]

This beer is now at 1.011 and still going pretty strong. I'm hoping my large starter, careful mashing and temperature control will work out. So far, so good.

 

[FlyGuy]

This beer is now at 1.011 and still going pretty strong.

It sounds to me like you are golden, then! Should be a tasty brew.

 

[Cugel]

Perhaps a better way to have approached this (as Rev JC states), one could have instead taken their 1.070 recipe, pulled out some of the base malt and replaced the fermentables with an appropriate amount (by SG) of simple sugar.

This is definitely the technique that should be followed to dry out the saison. Works well for me in conjunction with raising temperatures into the 80s after about 3 days fermentation and gently resuspending the yeast right at the time I start to warm the wort.

Also be sure to use a starter and to also be very patient - my most recent saison (using 3024) took 6 weeks to ferment sufficiently low (1.006), including 3 weeks in an outside shed to keep the temps in the low 80s. It will take some time, but it's worth it!!!!

Good luck!

 

[Catfish]

Add the brett and the sugar at the same time (or even brett first). In my experience you get a nicer, fuller aroma and flavor if you feed the brett a bit.

 

[korndog]

Add the brett and the sugar at the same time (or even brett first). In my experience you get a nicer, fuller aroma and flavor if you feed the brett a bit.

I just racked at 1.006 after 8 days. Decided to pitch Orval dregs after much discussion. I am thinking about feeding them some sugar too. table sugar? clear Belgian candi syrup? Any thoughts?

 

[korndog]

I thiefed a sample today. It's at 1.003 and crystal clear. Pretty darn tasty. No Brett funk, but a pleasantly tart finish. Not sure if that's from the Sacc. strain or the Brett.

P.S. 95% attenuation in 2 1/2 weeks. This yeast is pretty tenacious.

 

[korndog]

I decided to keg this beer rather than bottle for a couple of reasons. I wonder if there would be any qualitative difference between force carbing or priming in the keg. The Brett character is about where I want it, but wouldn't object to them feeding on some priming sugar either. Any thoughts particular to this style and method of carbonation?