Forgot the Irish Moss

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mathin

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I just bottled an IPA that was much cloudier than usual. I did two things differently on this batch: 1) I forgot the Irish moss in the boil and 2) I dry hopped in the primary instead of moving it to a secondary.

A couple questions. Will the cloudiness adversely affect the taste? Was it more likely caused by my forgetfulness than the dry hopping?

Thanks!
 
Use it as an experiment. Do a side by side with a batch were u used the moss and see if theres a noticable difference. Then be sure to report back with results, lol.
 
Here’s the recipe (inspired by the “Palilalia IPA” recipe from “The Complete Joy of Homebrewing” by Papazian):

7 lbs light malt syrup

1 lb 20L crystal malt
.5 lb German Munich malted barley toasted at 350 for 10 min
Steeped at 150F for 30 minutes

2 tsp gypsum @ 60 minutes

2 oz Northern Brewer Hops (9.1%) @ 60 minutes
1 oz Chinook Hops (11.8%) @ 60 minutes
3 oz Home Grown Hops @ 5 minutes
1.5 oz Home Grown Hops @ 2 minutes

Wyeast 1332 NW Ale Yeast

Dry hopped with 3.25 oz Home Grown Hops bagged and added to primary after 14 days and left in for 6 days.

All the hops are whole leaf. I ferment in my basement (~60F).

I didn’t use a secondary at all ... previously when I dry hopped I put it in a secondary, but getting the hop bags with the weights out of the carboy was a serious pain in the butt so I decided to try it in the primary (plastic bucket).

The home grown hops are from my folks … they don’t know what variety they are, but I suspect they are Willamette.

I figure it’ll be ready to try about Superbowl time … I’ll post back how it turns out.
 
I forget the irish moss more times than I remember, and opting for a month long primary it doesn't really matter, my beer is just as crystal clear whether I use it or not.
 
I just did the same thing! I forgot the whirlfloc in my usual IPA, and it's a bit hazy. Oh well. It still tastes the same, but I love a crystal clear beer.

Out of curiousity, why the 2 teaspoons of gypsum? That's a lot of gypsum, and I never see it in extract brews.
 
The gypsum amount was what the recipe called for. Our water is pretty soft so I figured it would be ok.
 
My IPA was the only one that had a slight haze to it,but still tasted great. I don't use any clearing agents,& get crystal clear ales just the same. Patience & a good process can do it. I guess you just have to chalk up a slight haze on an IPA to the levels of hopping typically used.
 
Well, I cracked a couple open for the game today ... they were a little less carbed than I thought they'd be, but they tasted great and were pretty clear. Might be one of the best batches I've made to date.
 
Dry hopping also produces hazy beers tho too, correct? I have turned out a couple crystal clear beers having never used any clearing agents, but I just dry hopped a few beers in a row and they are pretty hazy... Kinda wondered this myself.
 
Dry hopping also produces hazy beers tho too, correct? I have turned out a couple crystal clear beers having never used any clearing agents, but I just dry hopped a few beers in a row and they are pretty hazy... Kinda wondered this myself.

Why would you think that? None of the beers that I've ever dry hopped were hazy.
 
If I forget to add the IM or Whirlfloc, I've found that some gelatin does the trick to help clear it up nicely. But once in bottles, guess there's not much you can do now! lol
 
Why would you think that? None of the beers that I've ever dry hopped were hazy.

Revvy,

I was under the impression that dry-hopping has the potential to cause haziness in beer (I didn't know why, but I am always ready to find out). After a little further research, it appears that dry hopping can indeed cause hazy beers. Unfortunately, I cannot find any accredited references for this; it appears that this is not heavily researched. However, here is what I have gathered from multiple pro-brewer forum responses, and other non-accredited websites out there (not usually my style, I like professional references, but again, does not appear to be much for information about this topic).

Here is an excerpt from the probrewer.com forum that I believe best sums it up. Best explanation I can see so far. Will keep looking for accredited sources for this information.


"I do believe that this would be caused by protein/polyphenol interactions. Basically, the origin of this phenomenon is rooted in the types of proteins and polyphenols that are present in the beer.

When the wort is boiled much of the proteins (barley hordeins) are denatured and therefore in an open and extended stucture which makes them accessible to the to the polyphenols in solution (from malt and hops) and these associate to form flocs of trub, which get bigger and bigger, and eventually precipitate out and are left in the whirlpool. These associations are primarily between the proline residues of the barley hordeins and the aromatic rings of the polyphenols. This is not a chemical reaction, but it might be analagous to the attraction velcro has to its other half: it holds pretty well, but can come apart with a tug (only to re-attach later).

After the boil, most of the haze-active polyphenols have been removed in the trub, but there is still some protein left in solution. When dry-hopping you are adding more haze active polyphenols to the system, which in-turn allows for the eventual formation of more haze and trub-like sediment (sorta like Le Chatelier's principal). This can take a while to happen in the package because it is kind of dependent on the oxidation of the beer in the package. Once these anti-oxidant polyphenols begin to scavenge the oxygen in the package, they begin to re-polymerize into large molecular-weight structures, and due to their increased size they can more easily bridge the gaps between the protein molecules and cause haze. Once they get to a certain size, they fall out of solution.

Therefore, I would imagine the problem would appear sooner and be more severe if you have high headspace air levels. Also, it might be worse if you are using hop pellets rather than whole hops because the higher surface area of the hop material in the pellets might allow for a more complete extraction of the poylphenols into solution. I also found that the more acidic the solution, the more complete the extraction of polyphenols."

So it appears that this protein/polyphenol binding occurs early, and depends on several different factors. Also, it appears that it will dissipate over time, depending on these factors - may be weeks-months. As I mentioned in a previous post, I have made crystal clear beers (before I started dry hopping), but the last 2 batches I have dry hopped are hazy (dry hopped with pellets). They are both a little over a month out, and may have cleared a little, but not much.

Found at: http://www.probrewer.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-1403.html

Let me know what you think.
Ryan M.

Sorry OP, didnt mean to hijack the thread, but I hope the information is relevant to you too.
 
I've found that the sooner you chill the wort down to pitch temp,these haze producers reactions are slim or non when the chill takes 20 minutes or less. Our last 2 batches were chilled in 20 minutes,& at fridge time stayed clear with no chill haze visible over 1 & 2 weeks time.
 
unionrdr,

I have been able to chill the last 20 (5-5-10) gallons I have brewed in less that 13 minutes each with my IC (thank you cool winter Idaho water ~40 degrees out of tap). I have not had any issues with haze or clarity, and have never used finings. Both of my pale ale kegs have been in the fridge for ~2 weeks give or take a day or two, and have cleared maybe a slight bit - I imagine with time they will clear more (I am not willing to wait that long :)). Nothing in my process has changed, except the dry hopping. I have a new keggle, and have been putting my hops in a hop spider during the boil. Otherwise, process remains exactly the same mashing/lautering/fermentation wise.

I don't know, maybe I am completely off base, but just seems strange. I have heard that dry hopping can cause a haze, just did not know why. The above explanation seems appropriate. I just hate when people say that "I did it a certain way, and it was perfect." Just because it "worked" for you, does not mean it will work for everyone. Instead of providing useless information (which is not usually his style), explain to me why a process may or may not work/why or why not something happens and the reasoning behind the process. Besides, my post was a questions anyways, not a direct statement. Guess I need to be more clear next time...

Anyways, mini rant over.

Ryan M.
 
unionrdr,

I have been able to chill the last 20 (5-5-10) gallons I have brewed in less that 13 minutes each with my IC (thank you cool winter Idaho water ~40 degrees out of tap). I have not had any issues with haze or clarity, and have never used finings. Both of my pale ale kegs have been in the fridge for ~2 weeks give or take a day or two, and have cleared maybe a slight bit - I imagine with time they will clear more (I am not willing to wait that long :)). Nothing in my process has changed, except the dry hopping. I have a new keggle, and have been putting my hops in a hop spider during the boil. Otherwise, process remains exactly the same mashing/lautering/fermentation wise.

I don't know, maybe I am completely off base, but just seems strange. I have heard that dry hopping can cause a haze, just did not know why. The above explanation seems appropriate. I just hate when people say that "I did it a certain way, and it was perfect." Just because it "worked" for you, does not mean it will work for everyone. Instead of providing useless information (which is not usually his style), explain to me why a process may or may not work/why or why not something happens and the reasoning behind the process. Besides, my post was a questions anyways, not a direct statement. Guess I need to be more clear next time...

Anyways, mini rant over.

Ryan M.

Chemistry is the same regardless of who is doing it. But...My IPA did have a slight haze from the hop oils not being boiled into the beer. Clear,but just a slight hop haze. Chill haze is easier to get rid of. so it seems to me you're seeing hop haze from dry hopping. That's the onlt time I see it.
And it can't be concidered usless information if I've done it time & again. In other words,repeatability. So I guess I have to start using $500 dollar words where 5c one would do just as well. I hate it when people won't try something till some decorated scientist or college student explains it in terms they've just learned. That's all well & good. But I explain how to make it work,which is more direct than a long descourse about why it works that doesn't tell how to do it. Get it?...
 
unionrdr,

This was the quote to which my last post was directed, not yours.

Why would you think that? None of the beers that I've ever dry hopped were hazy.

I at no point directed any of that post towards you. I was only explaining my process to see what you thought. "You" was meant as a general term, not you as in "unionrdr". I knew what I meant/heard in my head when typing, just came across directed towards you on accident. Hence the (which is usually not his style) quotation. My bad. Was not trying to offend anyone, especially you, as you are providing quality information.

Sorry, sometimes the internet is not the easiest way to express the way the words are meant to sound/interact during communication.
 
Revvy's post was referenced in post #15. Me directly in post #17 where the comments were made. So I'm getting a little dizzy here. I'm thinking brain fart here,not at all uncommon whe you're trying to type & remember all at once. I mess myself up typing as I'm thinking about what to say,since I can't type all that fast anymore.
And yeah,it's not always easy to convey the feeling behind the written word. When I was in college,we were taught in comm 1 & 2 to write the way we speak. At this point I figured it's better to explain how to get a desired effect directly,rather than why it works in a long winded disertation. But it's a good read now & then. I used to get straight "A"'s in the living sciences. I just moved beyond giving myself a headache remembering all the specific reactions.
Idk,maybe sometimes I could be more in depth. So it's cool man,I was just giving the short answer. Now...where the hell were we again?....:drunk::D
 
I hear you, its all good. I will never forget Comm 101... Hated it to say the least, but we use it everyday...

I was referring to Revvy's post in #12 while I was typing back to you. My mind was in a couple different places, and I didn't indicate that well enough in the post. My bad.

Anyways, I don't think that my beer is super hazy, but has a slight haze to it, as you mentioned you have in your dry hopped beers. I dry hopped with an ounce of citra for 14 days, pellet form. I am sure that the haziness came from there, but I was just trying to figure out why. It seems that there is not a lot of information regarding hop haze.

Tastes really great, had a couple guys from the homebrew club say that I should enter it into fair this year, and maybe send it to some other competitions. Will see about that.
Will see how it clears up in the next few weeks, if any.

Thanks man, and sorry for the confusion.

Ryan M.
 
It's all good,no worries,m8. I think the haze comes from the hop oils not being boiled,thus not disspersing as well into the wort. Dry hopping being at much lower temps doesn't allow for this to happen. The ales I don't dry hop come out very clear,so I'm supposing this to be the case.
I dry hop for one week,my IPA got .5oz each of the hops used in the boil for 6oz total. A little less haze,so maybe longer times in the dry hop highten the effect.
 
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