Flanders red question

[Wernerherzog]

I have a roselaire troubleshooting question. I pitched a roselaire smachpack onto a gallon of leftover stout that I'd made, a really roasty stout. I'll probably never do it again as I don't think the flavors are too complementary but I Was wondering: It's probably been 5 months or so and I don't have a whole heck of a lot of sour on here. There's a little bit of tart or something and a weird smell, but that's it.

Any ideas what may have happened?

Also, the stout had a very high hop-rate so I was wondering if it was possible that my hops killed my lacto?

I'm mostly asking because I'm looking to do a proper flanders and want to use the yeast cake that I have but I'm wondering, 1: is autolysis a danger after this long (it seems most people are saying no, and 2: should I be afraid that the yeast or lacto has crapped out?

Should I just make a new starter, pump up the temps, and see what it tastes like?

 

[passedpawn]

I have a roselaire troubleshooting question. I pitched a roselaire smachpack onto a gallon of leftover stout that I'd made, a really roasty stout. I'll probably never do it again as I don't think the flavors are too complementary but I Was wondering: It's probably been 5 months or so and I don't have a whole heck of a lot of sour on here. There's a little bit of tart or something and a weird smell, but that's it.

Any ideas what may have happened?

Also, the stout had a very high hop-rate so I was wondering if it was possible that my hops killed my lacto?

I'm mostly asking because I'm looking to do a proper flanders and want to use the yeast cake that I have but I'm wondering, 1: is autolysis a danger after this long (it seems most people are saying no, and 2: should I be afraid that the yeast or lacto has crapped out?

Should I just make a new starter, pump up the temps, and see what it tastes like?

I've read that hops are bad for the bugs. So that might very well be your problem. My first sour, made from just a smackpack (no starter) of roeselare got very, very sour. If it is undrinkable as-is, try introducing some oxygen by opening it as swirling a little. I watched a 5-month old berliner weisse form a pellicle overnight after doing this.

I've got a flanders going on former roeselare yeast cake. Very nice and sour. I'm all for 2 generations. I'll let you know about 3 when I get there!

 

[Almighty]

Wernerherzog -
What was the FG of the Stout? The hops could limit the lacto, but probably there just isn't much of a food source. And most of the souring in Flanders comes from pedio which is usually active after 6 months. So if you want more sourness you should add some malto-dextrin to provide the bacteria with food.

Autolysis is not a problem since Brett uses dead Sacc yeast as a carbon source.
You can definitely use the yeast cake. The only issue is that most or all of the Sacc yeast is dead so it can be helpful to add some more. I suggest using a flavorful yeast that puts off nice esters - like a big fruity Belgian yeast. This will add much more complexity to your beer as it ages. You can use a starter, but it is really not needed in my experience

Passedpawn - Do not introduce oxygen - neither of the lactic acid producing bacteria (lacto or pedio) need oxygen to survive. Oxygen will promote acetic acid from enterobacteria.

I think a lot of people have a mis-conception about pellicles - a sour beer does not need a pellicle to be active. A pellicle is a response from Brett to the presence of oxygen. And a sour beer is not done when the pellicle drops. It is never "done" and should be bottled when the gravity is stable or it should be chemically stabilized when it tastes good.

 

[smokinghole]

Passedpawn - Do not introduce oxygen - neither of the lactic acid producing bacteria (lacto or pedio) need oxygen to survive. Oxygen will promote acetic acid from enterobacteria.

Unless you have really bad sanitation its my understanding that there is no enterobacteria present in these cultures. So adding oxygen will not promote acetic from them or acetobacter but the acetic comes from the brett. So unless you do a special order for enterobacteria or spit/crap/dump dirt/pour some live vinegar into your fermentor there should be no bacteria present besides Lactobacillus and Pediococcus.

 

[Almighty]

Correct they are not present in the cultures and oxygen will promote acetic acid from Brett.
But from what I understand it is pretty difficult to prevent enterobacteria from getting into your beer, so the best way to defend is to limit the amount of oxygen during the aging process.

 

[passedpawn]

I opened my first flanders at least 10 times while aging, and I did get some acetic acid. But I think it is appropriate for the style. Sure, too much and it's vinegar.

I wish I could get you guys to try mine and tell me what you think. Let me know when you're in town.

 

[McCheese352]

I’m no expert but my understanding of the situation is this…
I'm pretty sure enterobacteria is only a factor during the initial phase of Lambic fermentation and quickly dies off during fermentation as the ph drops and alcohol increases. If I remember correctly some really nasty stuff like E.Coli and Salmonella are enterobacteria, things I sure hope aren’t hanging around during later stages of fermentation. I would assume it’s not part of any commercially available cultures.
Having said that, Acetobacter (Different from enterobacteria) on the other hand does like oxygen and in its presence turns the delicious ethanol into not so delicious acetic acid (vinegar), so limiting the amount of oxygen during aging is recommended.
Almighty – I concur with your observations regarding pellicles. My flanders red is at around 6 months now and only has the slightest bit of one forming, which I attribute to me leaving it alone and keeping the airlock topped up.

 

[Almighty]

McCheese-
You are right I did mean to put acetobacter instead of enterobacteria in my last post.
Here is actually a pretty cool paper that goes into detail about these bacteria/yeast and how they are controlled for food and drink production.
Fermented frutis and vegetables. A global perspective. Table of contents.

 

[smokinghole]

It's not difficult to prevent acetobacter ingress, breweries do it all the time. In fact I have yet to grow any acetobacter isolated out of any beer samples I've tested at school (with the exception of truly mixed/spontaneous fermentations). In fact I would wager that Rodenbach's mixed culture doesn't even have acetobacter. I would bet that their acetic comes from the LONG secondary and microoxygenation afforded by the wood barrels. If they had acetobacter they'd be screwed by the end of the first year or two of secondary fermenation and end up with a foudre of red malt vinegar.

I've made vinegar at my parents house and it is not a super slow process. So acetobacter, to my knowledge, is not a part of commercial flanders. I also doubt they include acetobacter in lambic cultures.

 

[Almighty]

That is pretty interesting.
So you think the acetic acid for Flanders Reds mostly comes from the Brett and it uses the low amount of oxygen that diffuses over time? Or too much head space when brewed by homebrewers?

 

[smokinghole]

I do think the acetic acid mostly comes from brett. I came to this realization on my own (if anyone but me take my realizations for anything), when I read about a brewery souring by oxygenating brett only beers in barrels. I cannot remember the brewery name but in the presence of oxygen brett will produce acetic acid. I have not found a metabolic pathway map for brett (I haven't look real hard though), if I could find one it would explain everything. If one does not exist who knows then. A metabolic pathway map would demonstrate what is made in the presence of oxygen versus anaerobic conditions. I'm trying to figure these things out and do research but even with my university library has limited offering on Brettanomyces behavior. A large majority of academic research papers is directly related to the wine industry with the only beer references from 20yrs ago from Leuven about lambics.

When I find anything cool I'll post up and share the info.

 

[Almighty]

You should contact Chad from the Brettanomyces Project and now Crooked Stave. I remember him talking about this, but not sure where the reference is. His AHA presentation has some good info:
2011 Presentations Brewing with Brett

 

[calebawilson]

Another question I was going to transfer this and put more wort on the cake but haven't had a chance to brew lately and there is now a pretty gnarly Pellicle formed I brewed this Flanders red on the first of November today is December 26th is it still ok to transfer off and add wort to the cake?

 

[Almighty]

Yes, that will work well. The viability of the Sacc strain may be pretty low, so you may want to add some more to help start the fermentation. I recommend using a balanced Belgian strain, but you can use whatever you currently have. It will not make a huge impact on the beer over the long aging period.

 

[JacobS]

Ummmm the Sacc yeast strain will matter in the final outcome. Highly recommend the Belgian strain over a generic profile ale yeast. There is a whole post on HBT somewhere where this is discussed. Now that being said I am not saying that the beer will be bad or not turn out if you use a neutral strain just won't be as interesting.

 

[passedpawn]

Ummmm the Sacc yeast strain will matter in the final outcome. Highly recommend the Belgian strain over a generic profile ale yeast. There is a whole post on HBT somewhere where this is discussed. Now that being said I am not saying that the beer will be bad or not turn out if you use a neutral strain just won't be as interesting.

I seriously can't imagine the sacc strain having any impact on a Flanders red. Not mine, anyway. There are 2 brett strains in the Roeselare blend, so that's all that I needed.

 

[Almighty]

I also think the Sacc strain will make a difference, but I don't think it is that significant. Has anyone actually done a side by side comparison? My only reference is from year to year batches. I preferred my batches with a Belgian strain, but the final flavor could have been influenced by other factors.

 

[calebawilson]

Well I'm going to repitch the slurry so the Brett strains are going to be built up so I might add some wlp550 that will have from a belgain pale that's about finished.

 

[JacobS]

@Almighty,

I'd be up for doing a side by side if you or anyone else is. Say we both brew two batches one with neutral yeast, one with Belgian yeast, then add an agreed upon souring blend, trade examples after 1yrish?

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

The reason why the Belgian strains are preferred is for the sacc strain's ester production. Brett will take those esters and do interesting things with them, available acids and alcohol. It will make a more complex beer. It's my experience that the esters result in a more prominent brett flavor.