flanders red ale questions

[sweetcell]

on the red flanders i have got only a very thin film, dosen't like brett! (first 3 fotos) i'm scared that brett aren't working!

don't worry about the lack of a pellicle. just means that there is little or no O2 in there. it does NOT mean that there is not brett or that it isn't working.

i have an experiment with a thick brett pellicle(last 2 photos), i should add a little of experiment beer in the flanders in order to add some brett?

thanks for the help

p.s. the experiment is made with a morpheus beer that contain brett and lactic bacteria

yes, i would a little of that experimental beer to the flanders - not because there is no brett in the flanders, but because you'll be increasing the diversity of bugs in the flanders.

 

[Nico93]

i don't risk to alterate the equilibrium of the roeselare blend?

i think there is a lot of oxygen in the head of the "fermenter" because when i moved it to secondary i don't filled with co2 but,as you say, i don't care about the pellicle! thanks

 

[sweetcell]

i don't risk to alterate the equilibrium of the roeselare blend?

yes, but that balance of bugs in the roeselare is a bit weak on the souring side. by adding dregs you're mostly contributing brett and bacteria which will help with the sour flavors.

you're also contributing diversity, since the bugs in your dregs won't be identical to those in the roeselare. this can only make your beer more interesting.

 

[Nico93]

yes, but that balance of bugs in the roeselare is a bit weak on the souring side. by adding dregs you're mostly contributing brett and bacteria which will help with the sour flavors.

you're also contributing diversity, since the bugs in your dregs won't be identical to those in the roeselare. this can only make your beer more interesting.

thanks! how much you think i have to add?

 

[sweetcell]

thanks! how much you think i have to add?

you don't need to add any. roeselare will produce sourness on its own... it will just take a while, and might not be sour enough for your taste.

if you do decide to add dregs, add as many as you want... 2 or 3 bottles should be plenty. make sure the dregs are viable (good list here: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/p/dreg-list.html but of course there are others)

 

[Nico93]

you don't need to add any. roeselare will produce sourness on its own... it will just take a while, and might not be sour enough for your taste.

if you do decide to add dregs, add as many as you want... 2 or 3 bottles should be plenty. make sure the dregs are viable (good list here: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/p/dreg-list.html but of course there are others)

i don't really know what there is in morpheus dark, in the link there is only morpheus wild, i'm sure there is brett (because they formed the pellicle) but i don't know more

I added 100 ml of my experiment with morpheus yeast, hoping in a great beer
thanks

 

[MileHighBrewer]

Nico, don't worry about disrupting the balance. Adding bottle dregs will increase diversity, which will add layers of complexity. You're in Italy right? Lots of great sours being made there, try adding their bugs since you might not have access to the many beers we have here. Birra del Borgo and Panique are excellent breweries with viable bugs

 

[Nico93]

Nico, don't worry about disrupting the balance. Adding bottle dregs will increase diversity, which will add layers of complexity. You're in Italy right? Lots of great sours being made there, try adding their bugs since you might not have access to the many beers we have here. Birra del Borgo and Panique are excellent breweries with viable bugs

yes! you understand it from my english?hahaha

thanks for your advice, luckily one of my friends have a beershop with a lot of sour beer from Belgium area, Italian sour ale are very difficult to find for me!



p.s.

we have got a lot of good brewery like Birra del Borgo but also a lot of rubbish, people who understands that in Italy craft beer is becoming a fashion! they make rubbish and sell it as if were gold!

 

[MileHighBrewer]

yes! you understand it from my english?hahaha

thanks for your advice, luckily one of my friends have a beershop with a lot of sour beer from Belgium area, Italian sour ale are very difficult to find for me!



p.s.

we have got a lot of good brewery like Birra del Borgo but also a lot of rubbish, people who understands that in Italy craft beer is becoming a fashion! they make rubbish and sell it as if were gold!

Well, your English, plus I think you might have mentioned it once haha. The pics scream continental Europe as well. Very jealous!

I agree on the beers, same thing is happening here in the USA as well, a LOT of people finding new money and opening new breweries who are making poor quality beer because hey, craft beer is big business now. Birra is excellent, I was not so impressed with Lover Beer however. There are a few more Italian sours showing up, I just cannot remember the names of the ones I have tried.

 

[Nico93]

tasted today (i know is to early) for now there isn't acidity but i think is normal... taste good and smell better!

the gravity is dropped from 1020 to 1016



the next sample will be between 5 months

 

[Nico93]

hi!

the winter is coming and in my winery the cold is arriving!

during the winter in the basement the temp will be 50/55 F.

i have to put the fermenter with the flanders in the house or i can leave the beer in the winery? in the house i have rooms at 60/70 F


thanks

 

[Nico93]

no one?

 

[youreanimpulse]

I'm not super experienced with sours (meaning I may not have all the variables, I've been brewing them like mad for a little bit), but logically the very cold temp will slow the progression of your sour but not do any other damage. I would think 60 or 70 would be better if you don't want the winter to cause a delay in souring.

 

[sweetcell]

50-55 seems a little too cool to me. anything in the 60's is perfect, so i'd bring the sour beer into the house.

 

[Nico93]

thank you both, i'll brings it into the house!

 

[Nico93]

today i gave a look to my carbony and.....


is this a mother of vinegar?

there is something that i can do?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/z1zm5ii7djnmp6w/2015-02-01%2018.13.16.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/828jkk7wynnbslq/2015-02-01%2018.13.32.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/amkexlmxz47i445/2015-02-01%2018.13.57.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y70bvstwqjqq52e/2015-02-01%2018.14.06.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cv96cvaestglb60/2015-02-01%2018.14.40.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gdege8co0emi9o0/2015-02-01%2018.14.52.jpg?dl=0

excuse me if i used the dropbox links but i'm not able to use the forum attachments mode!

 

[sweetcell]

nico, how does it smell? and have you taken a taste?

 

[Nico93]

nico, how does it smell? and have you taken a taste?

it smell like the other carboy! no difference between the two.
no i haven't tasted it because i'm not able to remove a sample without introduce a lot of oxygen, i tried to remove this pellicle but it destroyed into small parts, one parts remained attached on the ladle and i tasted it, it wasn't acid

but it looks like vinegar mother and i can't think other bugs that do this type of pellicle right?

 

[sweetcell]

it smell like the other carboy! no difference between the two.
no i haven't tasted it because i'm not able to remove a sample without introduce a lot of oxygen, i tried to remove this pellicle but it destroyed into small parts, one parts remained attached on the ladle and i tasted it, it wasn't acid

but it looks like vinegar mother and i can't think other bugs that do this type of pellicle right?

if it doesn't smell like vinegar, and the sample doesn't taste like vinegar, then you probably don't have an aceto infection.

pedio can create something like this. if it is pedio, you should soon get a strong taste of butter (diacetyl). if that happens you will need to add some brett to clean that up.

 

[Nico93]

if it doesn't smell like vinegar, and the sample doesn't taste like vinegar, then you probably don't have an aceto infection.

pedio can create something like this. if it is pedio, you should soon get a strong taste of butter (diacetyl). if that happens you will need to add some brett to clean that up.

i took a sample right now, no it doesn't taste like vinegar!

i took a gravity reading and it is dropped down to 1012, (previously it was 1014)

there is a hint of acidity but is still to low for the style, but i can't say if it is lactic acid or acetic acid, is too low!

at this point I think there is hope that they Pedio!

thanks a lot for your help, i was in paranoid

i'll kep you up to date!

 

[Nico93]

loking on the internet i found this

https://docs.google.com/presentatio..._O9o8bLZJgn9PB5TnAwXSbw5uTE/edit#slide=id.i56



"Pediococcus produces a slimy elastic thread like consistency if the conditions are just right. Belgian brewers call this being “sick”, the technical term is “ropy”.
This slimy substance is harmless. It is composed of carbohydrates, acids, and proteins, and plays an important role in Lambic and Russian River funkified beers."

this confirms what you said

 

[Nico93]

one year and one month:

no acidity change (a hint! to low!) and no gravity change.

we will see in mid 2016 if something change!

 

[Nico93]

19 month old

no gravity change, now there is acidity!

but it seems acetic acid more than lactic, it's this normal for this yeast?

 

[sweetcell]

but it seems acetic acid more than lactic, it's this normal for this yeast?

no, Roesalare should only lactic... although brett, which Roe contains, can supposedly create acetic in the presence of a lot of oxygen. and if you have oxygen in there, you might also have acetobacter that is creating vinegar (i believe we went through this earlier in this thread )

i forget... what are you aging in? how much headspace is there above the beer?

 

[Nico93]

no, Roesalare should only lactic... although brett, which Roe contains, can supposedly create acetic in the presence of a lot of oxygen. and if you have oxygen in there, you might also have acetobacter that is creating vinegar (i believe we went through this earlier in this thread )

i forget... what are you aging in? how much headspace is there above the beer?

i'm aging it in two glass carboy (4-4/5 gallon i don't know exactly, there is a 1-1/2 gal of head space!
the carboy are closed with a plastic cap, I put on the cap two layers of plastic food but i'm starting to think that is too permeable to oxygen! today i added a aluminum foil

now taste good, maybe i can bottle now to reduce the oxygen intake or is to early?

 

[sweetcell]

what kind of a plastic cap? if it looks like this, then that might be the problem... those caps aren't air-tight. plastic wrap is a good idea, could help depending how it's applied, but it's not a replacement for a proper seal in the first place. aluminim foil isn't going to do anything.

if it tasted good after 19 months, i'd go ahead and bottle.

 

[Nico93]

it's like this:

http://www.damistore.it/media/produ...er-damigiana-lt-5-in-pvc-44-mm-100-pz-80a.jpg
i always wrapped it with plastic but i'm starting to think that is not enough!

so, i'm going to bottle in the next two weeks (after exams)! but first i have to re-read how to calculate carbonation sugar considering the loss of co2 due the long time in the carboy!

i also forgot that i have also 2 gallon in a barrel but i think after 19 month in a barrel small like that is became vinegar!

 

[Nico93]

bottled yesterday! I made huge mistake spreading beer everywhere! i'm not used to bottle from a carboy, i always bottle from plastic bucket with a tap! i clean everything and put in the garbage plastic one! i hope to be able to avoid cross contamination with the next brew! now i moved it into the vinery and i'll let it rest in peace for some times, i'll update the thread with the impression of the first taste

thanks everybody for the help!

 

[The_Nid_Hog]

Glad everything turned out well. My recommendation would be to use a bottling bucket in the future for bottling sours as well as for your clean beer. I brew a fair amount of sours and it was worth the investment to have another one around.

 

[Nico93]

yes, absolutely needed!