Flaked Corn, Cream Ale Issue

[jmyers04]

I brewed a cream ale a week ago. The fermentation took off fast out of the gate. Could have started too fast due to the fact we lost our digital thermometer (we have since replaced it) and had to use a dial type from a grill for the brew night. May have pitched yeast around 80 F or so. Which is too high I know. it was US-05 yeast. Recipe was:
4lbs Pilsner
3lbs Pale malt
1 lb flaked corn
10 carapils

Mash Temp (BIAB) was 152 F

After a week I did a hydrometer reading, if it was low enough we were going to add strawberries. It seems to be done but has stopped around 1.020. Normally with US-05 it will get down to 1.010. There is a weird off flavor that tastes weird. Super strong corn taste. Ive done a lot of research on the cream ale recipes and 1 lb doesn't seem like to much. Could it just be a first time flaked corn user not knowing what it tastes like in beer? Will that taste go away if I can get it to drop to that 1.010? A week in, should I let it go another week to see if it drops more. I have swirled the fermenter a few times with no new activity. or just repitch now?[/

 

[bfish]

The corn's sweetness/taste will subdue with time and CO2, however I think you are probably getting off-flavors from the ferment temperatures.

 

[mredge73]

How much carapils?
This is probably where the poor FG and weird taste is coming from.

The flaked corn doesn't contribute that much to taste. For example, Miller Lite uses flaked corn.
It is a sugar substitute; contributes sugar to dry the beer out and is cheaper than granular sugar when purchased in bulk.

 

[jmyers04]

Anything that can be done at this point? Getting it to finish fermenting won't change the corn taste much? Will the addition of fruit make much of a difference either?

 

[jmyers04]

10 oz of Carapils, sorry missed the ounce part.

 

[mredge73]

I am not sure what happened to your brew; maybe your thermometer is off and your mash temp was much higher. This could have hurt starch conversion.
You really shouldn't taste the corn much if at all; flaked corn highly ferment-able. 10 oz of carapils won't hurt anything either.
The strawberry sugar may help thin it out some. If you really want to experiment you can try adding a little amylase enzyme to target any corn starch that may have not converted.
Alternatively a couple tablets of Beano will drop it well below 1.01.

 

[jmyers04]

As I have done a little more digging.....maybe I did use too much Carapils. The flavor is hard to describe....but what flavor would one get with too much of it? And is there any way (re-pitching rehydrated yeast) to get the FG to drop?

 

[jmyers04]

I think our mash temp was maybe close to where I said, but I believe we pitched the yeast too hot. What kind of off flavor would doing that put off? it was at 80F or so we thought when we moved it from the boil kettle to the fermenting bucket. I figured it would drop some with the move to the bucket, then we aerate and pitch. Tried to get it out of the boil kettle because the hotter temps outside it wasn't cooling down fast enough.

 

[IslandLizard]

If you used that barbecue thermometer for the mash, you may have mashed a bit high. They're not very responsive or precise.

The Carapils doesn't help the fermentability cause either. The Flaked Corn is to reduce body while adding little or no flavor. Carapils adds body.

I doubt you can taste corn from a pound of Flaked Corn in that recipe. The off flavor is probably from the yeast at high temps.

What was the actual fermentation temp during the week, after the initial 80F pitch?

I'd raise the temps a bit to say, 74F and let it go another week. Some of those off flavors may condition out.

Be careful when rousing not to slosh the beer, and oxidize it.

 

[jmyers04]

I am not sure on the temp during that week. May have stayed high since the pitch was high and fermentation raises to temp some. For this recipe what is a good temp to mash at? This is only our third BIAB batch and we have mostly done extract. So pretty new to mash and mash temp procedures.

 

[Morrey]

IslandLizard just asked this:

At what temperature are you fermenting...is it a controlled temp or ambient?

 

[jmyers04]

Re-pitching going to do me any good?

 

[jmyers04]

Ambient.....the house is set on 71 and I bet its pretty close to that in that room. US-05 says it can handle up to 75....so I figured it would be ok.

 

[mredge73]

I am not sure on the temp during that week. May have stayed high since the pitch was high and fermentation raises to temp some. For this recipe what is a good temp to mash at? This is only our third BIAB batch and we have mostly done extract. So pretty new to mash and mash temp procedures.

Mash temp on a cream ale should be pretty low, 148-152.
Fermentation temp needs to be 66-68.

If you fermented at 75+ you will have yeast off flavors that are not consistent with a cream ale.
These flavors are produced during the growth phase, as in during the first 48 hours. This is why you don't want to pitch hot.
You also have plenty of yeast so you don't need to re-pitch. As stated earlier, you will need to let it ride a little longer and hope the yeast clean up after themselves.

If you cannot control fermentation temperature you need to look at doing Belgium and farmhouse styles during the summer months.

 

[jmyers04]

So what can be done with this brew at this point? A week and a day in. Hydrometer reading yesterday was 1.020. Seems to be done from all signs. Re-pitch? I have no way to really raise the temp unless I knock up the temp in the house some, which might not work out that well. I can move it to the garage for a few hours then bring it back in. If it never gets below the 1.020 will I have bottle bombs? I am at a loss right now. Really messed this one up. Haven't had any issues with our BIAB procedures to this point....going back to a good thermometer will help for sure.

 

[mredge73]

Leave it alone for another week, as in don't touch it and don't look at it. This is the best advice that I can give you right now.
Let us know how it tastes and what the FG is next Thursday and we can go from there.

 

[jmyers04]

Ok, sounds like a plan......Thanks!

 

[jmyers04]

mredge73.....I did a hydrometer reading this morning. I write down all the brew dates and info so I don't lose track of where the beers are during all the stages. It is two weeks since brew day on the cream ale today. As far as the hydro reading....maybe a shade under 1.020 so doesn't seem to have dropped anymore. The taste was similar as well. Kind of sweet on the aftertaste (assuming because of the higher FG the sweetness will be more pronounced than other times I have used US05) and flavor is maybe a little on the corn side. The flavor is hard to describe so I apologize on that. This beer was going to get 5 lbs of strawberries, so maybe the fruit will mask some of the sweetness? Your thoughts?

 

[mredge73]

Adding the strawberries with a little pectic enzyme will restart fermentation for sure; expect it to be pretty violent.
This will lower your gravity by a few points but I cannot say for sure if it will cover up the off flavor that you have.
If it is drinkable I would say to proceed as planned. If not save the fruit for next time.

As a last resort, if you have a little amylase enzyme you could try some (a little goes a long way). This will reduce the body further and should strip away any residual sweetness.
You have to give it time to work, at least a week to be sure that it has reached its branch limit and the yeast has finished eating all the new simple sugars.

 

[jmyers04]

After talking with another home brewer whom I trust....I decided to not go with either enzyme and to go ahead and add the strawberries. He said the enzyme might give me the opposite problem ( a super thin beer as it will tear thru the complex sugars that are left). He also said the strawberries would leave behind some water so that might help drop the gravity a bit as well. I added the strawberries on Tuesday and it took back off....filled the bubbler with red foam by Wednesday at noon....I put a blow off tube on and action has deceased as of today. I pulled a quick sample at lunch....dropped to maybe 1.018. Taste after being on the berries for a few days was better than without them for sure. Still a little sweet and corny but not as pronounced. We are going to let it go until next Tuesday and take another gravity reading. If it hasn't moved or just moves a little down can we go ahead and bottle? I am assuming that is what you meant by if it is drinkable go ahead and proceed?

 

[mredge73]

He is correct about amylase, it will really thin out your body and drop it well under 1.010.
This is what I thought that you wanted? Cream ales are usually pretty dry; mine finish around 1.004-8

Pectic enzyme will only chew up the fruit walls; this allows more juice/sugar to be extracted from the berries.

 

[jmyers04]

I guess the dosage put in would be how much it thinned it out? Never used it before. I can see if my LHBS has any. If they don't I'm not sure what my next step is if this doesn't drop anymore. Which I don't plan on it doing at this point. Sample today was drinkable. Def a little more sweetness to leave won't hurt. If I don't use amylase and it finishes just a touch under 1.020 can I assume it's just done and bottle ?

 

[jmyers04]

He is correct about amylase, it will really thin out your body and drop it well under 1.010.
This is what I thought that you wanted? Cream ales are usually pretty dry; mine finish around 1.004-8

Pectic enzyme will only chew up the fruit walls; this allows more juice/sugar to be extracted from the berries.

Sorry to keep an old thread alive but, I wanted to touch on this similar "off flavor" I had on this cream ale. I was asked to brew a blueberry blonde ale for a bridal shower. I have since started using the swamp cooler method and have had good results keeping my fermentation temps in the correct range. This blonde ale....did not have any flaked corn. It was pretty much all pale 2 row with a touch of vienna for some flavor. I used US-05 yeast again. DID NOT pitch at 80 this time....pitched at 68 and fermented at 68 until letting it free rise towards the end. I took a hydrometer reading before adding the fruit and the same similar "cornish" type flavor was there again. No flaked corn this time. I do not taste this flavor in any IPA or stouts I have done. I can't for the life of me figure out what this flavor is coming from. Our chiller is not the best in the world.....could it be we are taking too long to chill it down to pitch temp? And so the flavor is similar to DMS? The bridal shower killed 5 gallons in 4 hours so I got great reviews on the beer. Is this just a flavor I am more susceptible to than others? I asked someone at the shower if they could taste it and they said no. I brew with my brother in law and he doesn't seem to be able to detect it either. I'M AT A LOSS!

 

[NGD]

Could be that your just more susceptible to tasting particular compounds. Similar to how certain ethnicities are more prone to viewing cilantro as tasting like soap rather than a pleasent herbal addition.

Curious if you used similar grains as your cream ale batch and what your mash temps were. Also, with the cream ale, did you still notice the taste as you got down to your last bottle after it had skme time to age?

 

[jmyers04]

Could be that your just more susceptible to tasting particular compounds. Similar to how certain ethnicities are more prone to viewing cilantro as tasting like soap rather than a pleasent herbal addition.

Curious if you used similar grains as your cream ale batch and what your mash temps were. Also, with the cream ale, did you still notice the taste as you got down to your last bottle after it had skme time to age?

The cream ale recipe is listed above.....the blonde was just 10 lbs 2 row and 1 lb vienna. Very little hops in either of them. I thought the cream ale off flavor issue was due to the fact we pitched at 80 F. The blonde and cream mash temp was 152. I guess I should have stated above that for the blonde we used wyeast dennys favorite 50 and not us-05. we pitched the blonde at proper pitch temp and i also have since started the swamp cooler method so fermentation temps are more under control than with the cream ale. Different yeast, different grain bill, same amounts of hops (very little) and both had a similar "odd" flavor to me....it comes through in the aftertaste if that helps. Both were mashed for 90 min and boiled for 60. A friend of mine that brews told me that with only 4 lbs of pilsner we didnt have to boil for 90. So we stuck with our normal 60. Vigorous boils I would say....I have worried about DMS so I make sure it is good and rolling....no lid of course. The cream ale was bottled and the blonde was kegged. As far as the "odd" flavor fading with time on the cream ale.....noted in some of my original posts, we pitched at 80 F and the fermentation took off like a rocket and stalled around 1.020 instead of the 1.010 or lower we expected. This caused gushers in almost all of the bottles we saved to age some.....so those were toast. The blonde ale was consumed so fast that it really didnt have time to mellow out and see how it aged. I am truly confused as to what this flavor is....I am glad other people cannot taste it...but sucks for me since I put the time and effort into brewing it. There has to be some common factor here making me taste this in two pretty different beers. On a side note.....both got fruit additions and the fruit flavor was there and good but not enough to mask the "odd" flavor

 

[mredge73]

We need to look into what is common between the brews.
Did the grains come from the same sack/store? Did the hops come from the same package?
Equipment clean and well maintained?

Could it be a water issue; not sure if we talked about water yet in this particular discussion.
This is my best guess at this point.
Next time change your source of water and see if the taste changes or goes away.
Make sure your source does not contain any clorine or chloramine.

 

[jmyers04]

We need to look into what is common between the brews.
Did the grains come from the same sack/store? Did the hops come from the same package?
Equipment clean and well maintained?

Could it be a water issue; not sure if we talked about water yet in this particular discussion.
This is my best guess at this point.
Next time change your source of water and see if the taste changes or goes away.
Make sure your source does not contain any clorine or chloramine.

Grains came from the same place. Hops from different packages. Equipment is always clean. I get RO water from my local Store....But its weird that in IPAs and Stouts I cant taste it.

 

[NGD]

I saw that you posted another thread related to this issue. I think you hit the nail on the head...DMS. One thing I didn't see (may have missed) is what method your using to cool your wort post boil. I found a couple of good reads on preventing DMS and exactly what DMS is. Hope these help.
http://scottjanish.com/how-to-prevent-dms-in-beer/
http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/04/10/dimethyl-sulfides-dms-in-home-brewed-beer/
https://beerandbrewing.com/off-flavor-of-the-week-dms/
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-4/is-my-beer-ruined/common-off-flavors (probably the most concise of the links I posted)

 

[jmyers04]

I saw that you posted another thread related to this issue. I think you hit the nail on the head...DMS. One thing I didn't see (may have missed) is what method your using to cool your wort post boil. I found a couple of good reads on preventing DMS and exactly what DMS is. Hope these help.
http://scottjanish.com/how-to-prevent-dms-in-beer/
http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/04/10/dimethyl-sulfides-dms-in-home-brewed-beer/
https://beerandbrewing.com/off-flavor-of-the-week-dms/
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-4/is-my-beer-ruined/common-off-flavors (probably the most concise of the links I posted)

I use an immersion chiller......it takes awhile in the warmer months so I chill it down as far as it will go maybe half an hour....then move to the fermenter and put it in the swamp cooler with frozen water bottles and wait until it gets to pitching temp.....always within another 30 min or so

 

[NGD]

That a fair amount of time for an immersion chiller. One thing I’ve gotten on to doing is using the hose to chill down to ~150, then switching over to a pond pump inside an ice water filled cooler to drop it the rest of the way. Works well and I can usually chill down to 65-68 in 18-20 minutes. Btw, I live in California where the ground water is frequently 70+ degrees

 

[jmyers04]

That a fair amount of time for an immersion chiller. One thing I’ve gotten on to doing is using the hose to chill down to ~150, then switching over to a pond pump inside an ice water filled cooler to drop it the rest of the way. Works well and I can usually chill down to 65-68 in 18-20 minutes. Btw, I live in California where the ground water is frequently 70+ degrees

So is this lengthy cool down period the reason for possible DMS? How do you get the “cold break” they speak of

 

[NGD]

So is this lengthy cool down period the reason for possible DMS? How do you get the “cold break” they speak of

I can’t say for certain this is your issue. I’d refer to one of the more experienced brewers on here. This quote from Palmers “How to brew” would suggest that may be the case. However if your the only one tasting it then you may be more sensitive to those compounds.I have a similar issue with houses that are plumbed with pex.

DMS is continuously produced in the wort while it is hot and is usually removed by vaporization during the boil. If the wort is cooled slowly these compounds will not be removed from the wort and will dissolve back in. Thus it is important to not completely cover the brewpot during the boil or allow condensate to drip back into the pot from the lid. The wort should also be cooled quickly after the boil, either by immersing in an ice bath or using a wort chiller.

 

[mredge73]

30 minute isn't all that long, most of mine take about that long to cool to pitch temp.
I use pilsner as my base grain and do not get DMS flavors. Boil for 90min without a lid and cool in under 30min and you should be fine.

The only other thing that I can think of is grain oxidation, being that both grains came from the same store.
Stale cardboard like taste could be perceived as corny?

If you are hyper sensitive to these compounds you should taste these in commercial beers too.
I am out of suggestions, good luck finding your issue.