First wort hopping

[teddy4xp]

Here's one better for ya: read Stan Hieronymous' new book, "For the Love of Hops". He explains some new research that shows insights into HOW and WHY the FWH process does what it does. Better than a rule, b/c if you know the process you're more likely to accurately produce what you plan. :rockin:

And also listen to his interview on the BN, he gets into some pretty interesting topics such as perceived bitterness and FWH

 

[Piratwolf]

And also listen to his interview on the BN, he gets into some pretty interesting topics such as perceived bitterness and FWH

#BNArmy!

 

[Denny]

So let's say hypothetically I'm brewing a batch using a hop variety with 10% AA. The normal recipe calls for 1 oz for :60, 1 at :15 and one at knock out. If I wanted to use the same 3 ounces in this recipe and not increase the bitterness, how would I change the hop schedule?

Move the 15 min. addition to FWH. It will increase the measured bitterness, but not the way you perceive the bitterness.

Also, if this were an extract batch, could you just heat it to 155 for :30 minutes or so before boiling and have it work the same as FWH?

That's what I do. I have a batch of extract waldo Lake amber on tap where that exact technique was used.

 

[ScrewedBrew]

If I understand this correctly, Yooper moves the 60 minute to FWH, and Denny moves the 15 minute to FWH and still does the 60 minute?

I'm about ready to mash out a pale ale, trying to decide what to do. My recipe calls for all Cascade:
1 oz 60
1 oz 30
1.5 oz 5
1.5 oz 0
1 oz Dry hop

I'm thinking of:
1 oz FWH
No 60 min
1 oz 30 min
1.5 oz 5 min
2 oz steep after flameout
No dry hop

Critique?

 

[Denny]

For me, that likely wouldn't give me the bitterness I was looking for. For Yooper, it's probably be great. And I always dry hop APA/AIPA.

 

[Yooper]

For me, that likely wouldn't give me the bitterness I was looking for. For Yooper, it's probably be great. And I always dry hop APA/AIPA.

Yes, Denny's right. I'd move the 30 minute addition, though- either to flavor hops for more flavor (15 minutes) or to 60 minutes for more bitterness depending on your preference. And I usually dryhop APAs as well, but I LOVE hops flavor and aroma!

 

[ScrewedBrew]

Yooper, I'm going to go with you on this one. I don't like harsh bitter but prefer lots of flavor and aroma. (just drank an IPA that tastes like grapefruit juice)

New plan
1 oz FWH
No 60 min
1.0 oz 15 min
1.5 oz 5 min
1.5 oz steep / whirlpool
1.0 oz Dry Hop

Going to lauter and add 1 oz right now.

 

[bobbrews]

The Pliny the Elder clone recipe, which is all over the internet, shows us that you can brew a beer with no first-wort hops, an insane amount of early addition boil hops, along with huge amounts of late hops and dryhops yet still have a very pleasantly bitter beer that is not harsh by any means.

There are few set-in-stone answers when it comes to brewing a smooth beer with a decent amount of hops.

 

[Bamsdealer]

Yooper, I'm going to go with you on this one. I don't like harsh bitter but prefer lots of flavor and aroma. (just drank an IPA that tastes like grapefruit juice)

New plan
1 oz FWH
No 60 min
1.0 oz 15 min
1.5 oz 5 min
1.5 oz steep / whirlpool
1.0 oz Dry Hop

Going to lauter and add 1 oz right now.

I brewed a similar ipa that came out like grapefriut juice. Just kicked the keg. All whole hops I got from victory brewing. Turned out really good. Only difference was a 60 min addition of cascade in addition to the fwh to get the ibus I was looking for.

Went light on the crystal malts. Quarter lb of c10 and honey malt each was it. Really helped it finish bright and refreshing. Went with a little sugar to help it finish around 1010.

 

[ScrewedBrew]

I bumped up the 15 min to 1.5 to get me back to 40 IBU. The grapefruit IPA beer was 100 IBU with Simcoe and Centennial. So hopefully all Cascade will not be too harsh. The sample I tasted had a light grapefruit, but so far tastes excellent

Thanks for the quick help!

 

[Demus]

Let's face it, IBU's are a guideline, not a rule. There are more variables than calculated or even measured IBU's when it comes to the perception of bitterness. I started this thread to try and get a handle on something I haven't tried, first wort hopping. Does it add more flavor or different flavors than can be achieved otherwise? Does it contribute to the total bitterness in a way that needs to be compensated for in the boil bittering charge? Is the flavor addition in place of the bitterness, or in addition to the bittering contribution? I wasn't really trying to get into who's "right and wrong" when it comes to any particular recipe, just to understand first wort hops and what they contribute to a brew. Other comments should go to other threads, thanks...

 

[Yooper]

Geez, who pissed in your Cheerios?

It seemed to be a very genial discussion on the issues you name, and nothing more.

But if you want scientific fact, and not discussion, then the simple answer is that FWH increases the total IBUs as measured by spectomometer. But the perception is something else.

 

[MalFet]

Let's face it, IBU's are a guideline, not a rule. There are more variables than calculated or even measured IBU's when it comes to the perception of bitterness. I started this thread to try and get a handle on something I haven't tried, first wort hopping. Does it add more flavor or different flavors than can be achieved otherwise? Does it contribute to the total bitterness in a way that needs to be compensated for in the boil bittering charge? Is the flavor addition in place of the bitterness, or in addition to the bittering contribution? I wasn't really trying to get into who's "right and wrong" when it comes to any particular recipe, just to understand first wort hops and what they contribute to a brew. Other comments should go to other threads, thanks...

Here's the answer you're looking for: "FWHs are complicated and there is no simple answer to any of the questions you asked."

 

[meltroha]

And what's funny is that just last night I was telling Bob that when we get down to Ohio again, that we have to get another growler of that! I LOVE that beer, and it's one of my favorite IPAs around.

I agree, not over harsh at all, one of the best IPAs out there. I am spoiled because I can drive 5 minutes to the grocery store to buy it in bottles, or 45 minutes to Fat Heads brewery!

 

[thughes]

Let's face it, IBU's are a guideline, not a rule. There are more variables than calculated or even measured IBU's when it comes to the perception of bitterness. I started this thread to try and get a handle on something I haven't tried, first wort hopping. Does it add more flavor or different flavors than can be achieved otherwise? Does it contribute to the total bitterness in a way that needs to be compensated for in the boil bittering charge? Is the flavor addition in place of the bitterness, or in addition to the bittering contribution? I wasn't really trying to get into who's "right and wrong" when it comes to any particular recipe, just to understand first wort hops and what they contribute to a brew. Other comments should go to other threads, thanks...

Try it for yourself.............

 

[Demus]

I shall indeed. Really looking forward to it. Thanks for all the great posts...

 

[meltroha]

I may be missing something, but what is the normal amount for a 5 gall batch? Should I just put it in Beer Smith?

 

[Demus]

I may be missing something, but what is the normal amount for a 5 gall batch? Should I just put it in Beer Smith?

Beer smith and others can get you in the balpark for a style, but I think it's like trying to use a program to tell you how much hot sauce to put on your burrito. We can try and figure it out before hand, but it's all about personal taste at the endo of the day...

 

[Bamsdealer]

I may be missing something, but what is the normal amount for a 5 gall batch? Should I just put it in Beer Smith?

Ive found something in the range of 1 oz for pales and 1.5 to 2 oz for ipas get you in he ballpark for bittering. Those are for mid to high alpha hops... 8 to 12 aau. I just tried 3 oz in a dipa along with an ounce of nugget at 30. That proved a bit much... which is hard to imagine with my taste. Could have been something else in my process or the variety of hops used, but I didnt deviate much from my standard process or hop varieties.

I say that now but the dipa is young and im still getting some "hop dust" from my keg hops. The harshness may drop off as this sits in the keg another week or two.

 

[remandsager]

Brad Smith discusses first wort hopping here:

http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/11/19/first-wort-hops-fwh-in-beer-revisited/

 

[meltroha]

Reading that explained a lot, and confused more, guess it's about experimenting. Thinking about trying centennial for fwh, or a blended hop like falconers flight, then nugget or Columbus at 60, amarillo at 20 & summit at fo, thoughts? Maybe throw in a fair amount of crystal 60 for some residual sweetness, just in case, like 8% or so.