First time sour

[Bruinpilot]

I have never attempted to brew a sour. I actually have had such good success brewing ales and lagers that I have become a little bored with regular brewing. I have also gotten very lazy and don't feel much like mashing, so i am attempting an extract based sour. I just made up a recipe off the top of my head when i last visited my local brew store. It is about 80% vienna and 20% wheat malts. (Both liquid) I used some hallertau and some old fuggles i found in my freezer for 60 mins in the boil, but should be pretty low acid. I also threw in a pound of candi sugar to give a little belgian character. I pitched wyeast's roselare blend and threw it in my fermentation chamber at 75 degrees until i had some bubbles at the airlock, then dropped the temp to 65. I used a bucket rather than a carboy, as i understand over time the bucket is a little more permeable to air, which may be desireable to feed the bugs for which i am looking. I am looking for a vinegary acidity, with some slight cidery overtones, maybe a little similar to a cuvée des jacobins. A semi sweet and sour flavor would be great, maybe a little like kombucha...

Here are my specific questions:
1) do i have to rack this beer? I expect it to take 18 months, so i am a little worried about autolysis of the yeast cake, however i have heard with good yeast that this fear is overrated, and i pitched a smack pack with a very fresh "born on date." I am also very lazy and dont really want to go through the hassle of reracking this beer.

2)i believe that the vinegary flavor i want is created by acetobacter, which likes warmth and oxygen, so once primary is over, should i heat the beer up, and if so how much? I live in Texas, so i can get this bad boy pretty warm. Also, should i remove the airlock to let in more oxygen for the acetobacter?

Any other tips for this brew, or for my next sour would be appreciated. I plan on starting another later this month so i can get a good pipeline going, but it is a little difficult since theyntake so long i have no idea if what i am doing is working, or what effect any changes i make will have until i drink it almost 2 years from now... Thanks.

 

[sweetcell]

here are a few stream-of-consciousness thoughts about your process, take with a large grain of salt...

nothing wrong with using extract for sours.

how many IBUs are you calculating? Roesalare is a pretty weak bug mix, anything over 10 (some say even 5) IBUs and you'll limit the souring.

is getting an active fermentation at 75 then lowering to 65 something you do often? i would be afraid of shocking the yeast and having it drop out on me, or become sluggish and not attenuate fully.

1. you do not need to rack. the brett will take care of autolysis. lambics stay on their yeast cake for 3 years or more. personally, i rack my beers to secondary just as primary is finishing up, but i do this mostly to free up my larger carboys (i rack from 6.5 gals to 5) and to reduce headspace (i fill the 5 gal all the way up to the neck). i try to avoid acetic flavors.

2. letting in more oxygen will encourage the acetobacter, the problem is controlling it. aceto can take over a beer. i'm not a fan of aceto, but if that's what you want then warm + O2 should do it. maybe try doing this batch without extra heat and O2, depend on the bucket leaking enough O2 (they are quite leaky!) and see how that turns out? if it's not enough, try again with heat and an open container. i would be concerned about creating not "vinegary flavor", but flat-out malt vinegar. lactic acid tastes much nicer than acetic, IMO.

keep us posted!

 

[m00ps]

I agree. Lowering the fermentation temperature once its gets going is really never a good idea for any type of beer (so long as you started at an appropriate temp). Any sour blend is perfectly fine free rising at room temps. I would never try to age a sour in a bucket. If you are really trying to intentionally vingarize your beer, I would just use a carboy and periodically open it up to the air for a bit.

 

[sweetcell]

2 more thoughts:

- consider adding some dregs from a sour beer. Roesalare bugs are rarely impressive on the first round. tends to be more expressive in the second generation, tho.

- you would have more control over the vinegary flavor by adding some vinegar at bottling/kegging. by opening up your beer to O2, you're really rolling the dice. you might not be able to stop it.

 

[Bruinpilot]

Thanks guys. Those are awesome insights. I may rack I a carboy and just pour the next batch on top of the yeast cake from this one and see what gen 2 can do. I hope the hops I put in there didn't kill the bugs though. I didn't make it very hoppy, but it is definitely in the 10-15 ibu range. I will make less hoppy on the next batch. Has anyone had luck with an unhopped sour? I wonder if the sourness can balance the sweetness and fill the role that hops play in a non-sour beer?

 

[rrenaud]

I'd recommend limiting oxygen. This is a tip that I got from the Mad Fermentationist. If you want it acidic/vinegary, then a couple weeks before you bottle it, rack a half gallon into a mason jar that you cover with a cheese cloth. That will get very vinegary/acidic. Mix it back in according to taste.

 

[Bruinpilot]

Just curious as a follow up, is the consensus best way to limit oxygen racking to a glass carboy with rubber stopper and airlock? Or is there an even better method? Thanks in advance.

 

[sweetcell]

I hope the hops I put in there didn't kill the bugs though. I didn't make it very hoppy, but it is definitely in the 10-15 ibu range.

the hops won't kill the bugs, just suppress them. they won't be able to do their thing an create lactic acid. if you add some dregs from sour beers, those more hardy bugs might still be able to make an impact.

I will make less hoppy on the next batch. Has anyone had luck with an unhopped sour? I wonder if the sourness can balance the sweetness and fill the role that hops play in a non-sour beer?

yes, you can make an unhopped sour, and yes the sourness will balance any sweetness (although often there isn't much sweetness left, brett and bugs tend to ferment almost all the sugars).

if i were to do something like that, i would add one pellet at the end of the boil, just to say that it's officially a beer

I'd recommend limiting oxygen. This is a tip that I got from the Mad Fermentationist. If you want it acidic/vinegary, then a couple weeks before you bottle it, rack a half gallon into a mason jar that you cover with a cheese cloth. That will get very vinegary/acidic. Mix it back in according to taste.

^ this. or, just use straight vinegar (use balsamic if you want to be fancy) and don't waste a half-gallon of your batch.

Just curious as a follow up, is the consensus best way to limit oxygen racking to a glass carboy with rubber stopper and airlock? Or is there an even better method?

dunno if it's consensus, but it has worked great for me so far. if you fill the secondary all the way to the neck, and leave almost no space below the air lock (no headspace), then what little O2 does get in will have very little beer to interact with.

there is a debate about which is worse: leaving in primary with the extra headspace; or racking to secondary and creating some O2 exposure during racking. i'm of the opinion that if you rack at the end of primary when there is lots of CO2 in solution, and active brett to scavenge any O2, and you rack carefully, then this is the best solution for long-term aging.

 

[Bruinpilot]

Sweetcell, thanks again for the awesome insights. I'm going to try and start another today. I am planning 80% Munich extract 20% wheat a pound of candi sugar and maybe a 1/4 oz of some real mild hallertau pellets. I'm debating pitching this right on to the cake from what I just brewed and then racking to the carboy as soon as primary is over. We'll see how it is in 18 months or so...

 

[Bruinpilot]

So I racked my beer and poured another identical batch on top of the yeast cake. It was bubbling in only about two hours!! I've never had a batch take off so fast. Hope it still tastes good!