First Time Saison - Feedback Welcome

[milo_leon]

Hello all,

I recently jumped into the world of All-Grain and have two batches under my belt. I brewed an Amber Ale which is fantastic and have a SMaSH ale with Galaxy Hops and Vermont Ale yeast (Conan strain) that will be kegged soon.

I am planning to brew a saison with the Saison Yeast from The Yeast Bay. Am using BeerSmith2 for my calculations below:

Batch size: 5 gal
Efficiency: 70% (I still need to dial this in)

Malt Bill
8# 2-row US Malt
1# Wheat Malt, German
1# Munich Malt
1# Candi Sugar, clear (should I add this at 60m or later in the boil to prevent scorching?)

Hops Schedule
60m: 1.5 oz Saaz (2.8% AA)
10m: 1.5 oz Saaz
0m: 1 oz Saaz

Projected SG: 1.058
Projected FG: 1.011
IBUs: 21.8
Color: 4.6 SRM


I'm wondering if I should I add more Saaz at flameout? I am looking to accentuate the yeast profile which has been described as spicy/tart/fruity/earthy. I am also looking add a bit more color to the saison- any suggestions?

Any feedback on my recipe would be greatly appreciated!

 

[GrainCounter]

Your malt bill looks good and I have made a very similar recipe before that turned out well. If you want to make a color adjustment, I would suggest a couple ounces of carafa malt or perhaps a few ounces of Special B or Cara Munich.

I would mention that you don't have to use candi sugar, and you could easily use regular white table sugar instead. You won't notice a difference in the final product, and the table sugar is a fraction of the price. Many people say that if you add sugar early in the boil, it will carmelize. However, in practice, I add the sugar in the kettle before the boil and the wort that drains into the kettle from the mash tun dissolves it before the boil with some stirring. Of course you can elect to add the sugar at the end of the boil, and just make sure you stir well, and you should have no problems.

Your hop schedule seems off to me. When I plug in the numbers, I show an IBU calculation of only 16 IBUs. Did you change the AA in Beersmith, or is it on the default for Saaz? Two ounces of Saaz at flame out seems a bit much if you are trying to accentuate the yeast profile.

 

[milo_leon]

Your malt bill looks good and I have made a very similar recipe before that turned out well. If you want to make a color adjustment, I would suggest a couple ounces of carafa malt or perhaps a few ounces of Special B or Cara Munich.

I would mention that you don't have to use candi sugar, and you could easily use regular white table sugar instead. You won't notice a difference in the final product, and the table sugar is a fraction of the price. Many people say that if you add sugar early in the boil, it will carmelize. However, in practice, I add the sugar in the kettle before the boil and the wort that drains into the kettle from the mash tun dissolves it before the boil with some stirring. Of course you can elect to add the sugar at the end of the boil, and just make sure you stir well, and you should have no problems.

Your hop schedule seems off to me. When I plug in the numbers, I show an IBU calculation of only 16 IBUs. Did you change the AA in Beersmith, or is it on the default for Saaz? Two ounces of Saaz at flame out seems a bit much if you are trying to accentuate the yeast profile.

I will look into the Cara Munich - thanks! Should I reduce the amount of regular Munich so the total amount of Munich stays the same? Ie. 12 oz of Munich and 4 oz of Cara Munich?

My LHBS sells the Candi at about $5 per bag (1 lb), this batch will be split with a friend so I am not too worried about cost. In the long run, I'll definitely use table sugar as I did that with my Galaxy SMaSH.

I am using BeerSmith2 on the iPad if that makes any difference - the default for Saaz was 4% AA, but my LHBS has their Saaz AA listed at 2.8% so I adjusted the numbers. BeerSmith2 is telling me that a 60 min boil of 1.5 oz Saaz gives me 16 IBU, then 1.5 oz at 10 min will net me another 5.8 IBU. The 1 oz at flameout has no impact on IBUs.

Do you have a recommended hop schedule?

 

[GrainCounter]

I would keep the 1 lbs of Munich and add a few ounces or Cara Munich on top of that.

Saison is a very broad category, so you can certainly have a hoppy one if you want. Most common examples focus more on a firm hop bitterness with only low to moderate aroma hops. 25-30 IBUs and one ounce of 5-10 minute aroma hop addition would get you there. Saaz is definitely a fine choice for an aroma hop.

 

[milo_leon]

I would keep the 1 lbs of Munich and add a few ounces or Cara Munich on top of that.

Saison is a very broad category, so you can certainly have a hoppy one if you want. Most common examples focus more on a firm hop bitterness with only low to moderate aroma hops. 25-30 IBUs and one ounce of 5-10 minute aroma hop addition would get you there. Saaz is definitely a fine choice for an aroma hop.

Thanks! My LHBS doesn't have CaraMunich but read that Caramel 40L is a good substitute so I'll add 4 oz of that. Also would the flavors change if I use a darker wheat malt vs a lighter wheat malt to add more color?

I do enjoy hoppy saisons/sours so now I'm thinking of adding an extra ounce of Saaz to the recipe. Am thinking of this hop schedule:

60m: 2 oz
15m: 1.5 oz
0 min: 1.5 oz

BeerSmith2 says that I should have an IBU of 29. Would this work well?

Sorry for all the questions! You have been a great help

 

[GrainCounter]

Yes, you can substitute C-40 for Caramunich in this case, especially since it's a small amount, mostly for a color adjustment.

How dark of wheat malt do you want to use? One pound isn't a high percentage, so I don't think you would have a huge change in flavor unless you're using a especially dark malt. If you like your original recipe, but you just want to make a color correction, a very small dose of Carafa malt could do this with a negligible impact on flavor.

I think your hop schedule will be bitter enough and certainly on the hoppy side. I would say it would be almost on par with the hop schedule of a Bohemian Pilsener. If you like the hop profile of a Bo Pils, then you should be pleased.

 

[milo_leon]

Yes, you can substitute C-40 for Caramunich in this case, especially since it's a small amount, mostly for a color adjustment.

How dark of wheat malt do you want to use? One pound isn't a high percentage, so I don't think you would have a huge change in flavor unless you're using a especially dark malt. If you like your original recipe, but you just want to make a color correction, a very small dose of Carafa malt could do this with a negligible impact on flavor.

I think your hop schedule will be bitter enough and certainly on the hoppy side. I would say it would be almost on par with the hop schedule of a Bohemian Pilsener. If you like the hop profile of a Bo Pils, then you should be pleased.

The wheat malt is interesting - my LHBS store has several types and I was thinking of getting a German Wheat from Avangard that has has a color of Lovibond 1.5. They also have an English Wheat malt from Muntons that has a L:10, but it seems to be regular wheat malt, not dark wheat malt.

On Beersmith2, the only wheat with a color close to L:10 is labeled as Dark Wheat Malt, so I'm a bit confused if the Munton's brand is dark wheat or not.

Last thing about wheat- My LHBS also has Caracrystal Wheat Malt with L:55 so that could be another option to use?

At this point, I am pretty locked in on my recipe- just looking for ways to squeeze some extra "oomph" into the Saison.

 

[GrainCounter]

A wheat malt that is 10L is a dark wheat malt, similar to Munich malt. If you use the dark wheat, I would expect it to add a more pronounced malt flavor. If you are using wheat for its head retention benefits, stick with the 1.5L.

Caracrystal Wheat malt is simply a crystal malt made with wheat instead of barley, which you could use.