First-time Kegging Mini-Kegs & Force Carbonation

[Blue-Frog]

I am new to kegging and using pressurized systems.
Recently, I obtained a 4L mini-keg similar to the ikegger.
I am trying to learn about this system, but am having difficulty finding answers to some basic questions. Can someone help?

I have a regulator with a 74 gm CO2 bombe attached and wish to use that to test run the basic setup by force carbonating 4L of plain water. I was advised to cool the water and put on about 15 psi. I wanted to put the unit in the fridge to allow a slow, cool carbonation but found it doesn’t fit with the regulator in place, so I want to remove the regulator, while still allowing the keg to carbonate. So this is my question... Can I remove the regulator with pressure still in the keg, or do I have to pull on the pressure relief valve before attempting to remove the regulator/CO2 combo?

 

[RedlegEd]

I am new to kegging and using pressurized systems.
Recently, I obtained a 4L mini-keg similar to the ikegger.
I am trying to learn about this system, but am having difficulty finding answers to some basic questions. Can someone help?

I have a regulator with a 74 gm CO2 bombe attached and wish to use that to test run the basic setup by force carbonating 4L of plain water. I was advised to cool the water and put on about 15 psi. I wanted to put the unit in the fridge to allow a slow, cool carbonation but found it doesn’t fit with the regulator in place, so I want to remove the regulator, while still allowing the keg to carbonate. So this is my question... Can I remove the regulator with pressure still in the keg, or do I have to pull on the pressure relief valve before attempting to remove the regulator/CO2 combo?

Hi. My $0.02...the purpose of keeping pressure on the beer / water / cider /etc. is to dissolve the CO2 into the medium. If you remove the regulator and source of CO2, it will only absorb as much as what's left in the headspace of the container. If you purge it, it won't absorb anything at all (since there's no positive CO2 pressure.) The reason for carbonating cold is that cold liquid accepts and absorbs the CO2 much better than warm(er) fluid. The bottom line is that you'll need to keep CO2 pressure in your vessel if you want to carbonate your beverage (unlike bottle conditioning where you keep it at room temperature to keep the yeast active.) Perhaps you should consider priming and conditioning in the keg outside the refrigerator? Hope this helps. Ed

 

[Blue-Frog]

Thanks for your 2 c.

I understand and agree with you... perhaps I should have been more explicit and said I am afraid and uncertain if it is safe to detach the CO2/regulator unit from a pressurized keg... now if that is a normal and safe thing to do then that would be the way to go; I just don't know what is safe and what is dangerous in using these kegs and CO2 bombes.

 

[RevKev]

Also with water you will find you will need much higher pressures than with beer to achieve a seltzer, if you aren't looking for seltzer and just a trial. I would suggest just brewing. Pre chilling the keg and water will help dissolve higher levels of CO2 with less pressure on the keg.

 

[Sadu]

First turn off the regulator. Then you are safe to remove the grey ball lock disconnect.
If your keg has some other sort of gas connection, I'm not sure what the rules are with those sorry. Also have a look at getting a paintball cylinder and adaptor. Apart from beigh way cheaper, they should also attach parallel to the keg rather than poking out at weird angles. Again, assuming a ball lock gas connector.

 

[Blue-Frog]

So if the regulator is turned off, I do not have to use the pressure relief ring before detaching the regulator?

(Humm- Besides when venting O2, when does one really have to use the ring pull?)

(This is a ball lock system)

 

[Blue-Frog]

Revkey- yes I do want a seltzer.

 

[RevKev]

With force carbonation you can do two methods. One set the pressure, purge head space of O2 and leave it for three days to a week.

Two, set to a very high pressure, purge headspace and then shake the keg in your lap around 50-100 times. Lemme see if I can provide a link to a seltzer thread that I thought helpful

 

[RedlegEd]

So if the regulator is turned off, I do not have to use the pressure relief ring before detaching the regulator?

(Humm- Besides when venting O2, when does one really have to use the ring pull?)

(This is a ball lock system)

About the only time you'll pull to ring to release pressure is when you want to open the keg. Otherwise, leave it alone. The primary purpose for the pressure relief valve is to prevent a catastrophic failure of the vessel due to overpressurization. Pin-lock kegs don't even have a way to vent at the pressure relieve valve. The answer to your question is no, you don't have to relieve pressure before detaching the regulator/CO2 line in connector. Since it's supposed to be a sealed system, it should hold pressure indefinitely. Ed

 

[brew_darrymore]

So if the regulator is turned off, I do not have to use the pressure relief ring before detaching the regulator?

Correct. Turn the regulator to 0 psi and disconnect from the keg. No need to use the pressure relief valve.

(Humm- Besides when venting O2, when does one really have to use the ring pull?)

Usually you don't have to use that valve other than to purge O2 after kegging your beer. You don't need to purge if you are carbonating water as O2 can't spoil your water

Now, depending on how you're planning to tap the keg, you may need to bring your serving pressure down. For example, you carbonated your beer keeping it at 12psi for a week (a week may be enough as your keg is only 4 litres). The pressure in your keg headspace is 12psi. You now want to attach a quick disconnect faucet, like the one below. At 12psi all you are going to get out of that faucet is foam. You must bring the keg headspace pressure down to 2-3 psi. So, disconnect the CO2 regulator, then use the pressure relief valve to vent the headspace down to 0 and then, reconnect the CO2 for serving at much lower pressure of 2-3psi.

 

[Blue-Frog]

Thanks Everyone; these responses have been very helpful!

 

[Blue-Frog]

!

 

[Blue-Frog]

Lemme see if I can provide a link to a seltzer thread that I thought helpful

I understand the two options mentioned earlier (carbonating slowly at lower pressure and rapidly at a higher pressure) but how does temperature play into the picture, other than being faster the colder the temperature is? Is there a chart hiding somewhere that relates these factors ?

If you find it... I will read it!

Thanks

 

[Maylar]

I understand the two options mentioned earlier (carbonating slowly at lower pressure and rapidly at a higher pressure) but how does temperature play into the picture, other than being faster the colder the temperature is? Is there a chart hiding somewhere that relates these factors ?

If you find it... I will read it!

Thanks

Pressure and temperature are directly related to how much carbonation you get. The warmer the brew, the more pressure you need to achieve a certain carb level (measured in "volumes" of CO2). Here's your chart:

http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php

 

[Blue-Frog]

Pressure and temperature are directly related to how much carbonation you get. The warmer the brew, the more pressure you need to achieve a certain carb level (measured in "volumes" of CO2). Here's your chart:

http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php

I wish that scale was in Centigrade....

Humm,
So the amt of dissolved gas in the liquid has zero measurable effect on the pressure gauge?
and there is no measurable difference between an excessivle carbonated liquid and one that isn't carbonated at all?

I put 15 psi CO2 on 4 L of cold water and shook it down to ~0, then put another 15psi on it and shook again. After repeating this procedure a third time I assume that I now have a liquid with ~45psi CO2 in it... but the regulator only indicates the amount of pressure that has been created by whatever gas that is currently out of solution.

How is "carbonation level" measured?
Would that be where the "volumes" thing comes in?
Is there a meter that measures "volumes" dissolved gas?

I assume threre are electrodes for CO2 much like the pH meter for Hygrogen (?)... but that noone in the beverage industry uses them?

 

[Maylar]

I wish that scale was in Centigrade....

Humm,
So the amt of dissolved gas in the liquid has zero measurable effect on the pressure gauge?
and there is no measurable difference between an excessivle carbonated liquid and one that isn't carbonated at all?

If you had carbonated liquid in a sealed container and shook it (think of shaking a coke bottle) CO2 would come out of solution and pressurize the bottle. That can be measured -

I put 15 psi CO2 on 4 L of cold water and shook it down to ~0, then put another 15psi on it and shook again. After repeating this procedure a third time I assume that I now have a liquid with ~45psi CO2 in it... but the regulator only indicates the amount of pressure that has been created by whatever gas that is currently out of solution.

You applied 15 psi, which at that temperature relates to some level of carbonation. Shaking it helped the liquid to absorb the gas. At some point it would become saturated and wouldn't absorb any more CO2, and the gage will still show 15 psi.

How is "carbonation level" measured?
Would that be where the "volumes" thing comes in?

Yep. a 12 oz bottle is about 21 cubic inches of volume. One volume of carbonation level means there's 21 cu in of CO2 dissolved in it.

Is there a meter that measures "volumes" dissolved gas?

No. It can be inferred knowing temperature and pressure.

I assume threre are electrodes for CO2 much like the pH meter for Hygrogen (?)... but that noone in the beverage industry uses them?

Nope. Pressure and temperature. Here's a gizzmo for checking beer bottles:

http://www.zahmnagel.com/shop/testing-equipment/part-6000-co%C2%B2-piercing-device-for-containers/

 

[brew_darrymore]

I wish that scale was in Centigrade....

Your wish is granted. Here's your chart in Centigrade. I find this chart better than others as it expands to higher temperatures:

http://www.zahmnagel.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Zahm-Nagel-CO2-in-Beer-Chart.pdf

 

[Blue-Frog]

Thanks Maylar!

Re the Bottle Manometer photo...
Yes, I have been looking to make or buy one of those!

Re electrodes...
I found this but not sure if it could be used for beer & water:
"Severinghaus electrode"

see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severinghaus_electrode

 

[Blue-Frog]

brew_darrymore, Thanks for granting my wish!
It answers several questions!