First time cider

[LamIAm]

Hi Everyone,

I've lurked around here for a few months and this is my first post.

I have worked with a friend on about three brews and am slowly learning the ropes. This winter break, I am going to do my own batch. However, wifey asked that I start a cider now so we can start enjoying it in a few months. I have a few questions:

1) I am using Red Star Montrachet cider yeast. If I am pitching into juice/cider, do I need to add yeast nutrients?
2) I have a three keg set up and will ultimately keg this. Do I really need to rack into a secondary?
3) I am going to ferment and store in a 7 gallon water cube. Not looking for the leaching argument, but has anyone else stored for a few months like this?
4) If I was going to spice, I was going to do it after primary fermentation. Is there any gotchas I need to worry about?

Here is my steps:
1) Pour 4 to 4.5 gallons of apple juice/cider into the water cube
2) Add about two pounds of brown sugar (is this needed??)
3) Check gravity
4) Pitch yeast
5) Cap off water cube. Run a blow off line into a Gatoraide bottle of sanitizer (or vodka)
6) Wait a few weeks
7) Check FG
8) When FG stabilizes, seal it up
9) Wait

 

[theck]

I just started ciders myself this year, on 3rd bucket now... so might not be 100% correct but I'll try:
1. You should be able to just pitch, I've done it both ways so far. Doesn't seem to make much difference with the nutrients to be honest. In fact when I add them it seems to take longer to start, 3rd bucket had em.
2. I havent but if you want clear cider then rack. I just go from primary to keg just fine, first couple pours have a little floaters but it clears out fine after.
3. not sure
4. not sure

I just use my old ale yeasts that I washed when doing mine.
The brown sugar bumps your ABV, I just did 4lb in my latest batch (1lb in first, 2lbs in second) and got an OG of over 1.10 (wow). I'll let this one goto 1.10ish and rack it to a secondary, only did 3 gallons and will add 2 when keg. The last batch I had an OG of 1.068 and let it go below 1.0 and it was super tart and not sweet at all, after back sweeting it still is pretty tart. It might mellow over time but my buddies and I drink it too fast to give it the time it might need. I plan on always having it in stock, one in the keg one in the bucket... just move the bucket to the keg when it runs out. Anyhow, first one I did I went to 1.12 and preferred it to the 2nd, all a learning process and really enjoying the fact that it takes 20 mins to put it together and you can experiment with it easily.

 

[Gitmoe]

1) Yes, add nutrient. Pitch your yeast and on the second day of active fermentation add nutrient. I use Fermax personally.
2) I prefer to rack into secondary and clear with Super-Kleer KC before kegging.
3) You can store in a water cube for several months if you clear the headspace with Co2. The oxygen permeability of a water cube will act like a barrel in oxygen exchange. I know several commercial cideries that use large plastic holding tanks for long term storage to mimic barrel aging without investing in the cost and logistic issues of using actual barrels.
4) With spices start small. You can always add more but you can't remove spices.

I've been making cider for 3 years now at the clip of at least 40 gallons a year. This year I'll be doing closer to 60 gallons...

 

[LamIAm]

What's the proper way to clear head space with CO2? All the lines coming from the distribution block have QDs on them. I could mock something up. Is it as simple as forcing CO2 from an open line into the container, then sealing?

 

[theck]

1) Yes, add nutrient. Pitch your yeast and on the second day of active fermentation add nutrient. I use Fermax personally.

Maybe I should add after fermentations started, I'll try it on my next batch. I add it to all my beers but at the end of boil. Since there's no boil with cider I pop them into a starter since I'm using washed yeast. Speaking of which, you ever use Hefe yeast in a cider... my last jar of washed is a hefe and think I might pop that in on the next batch to see how it turns out. Once I run out I'll be doing cider yeast I think, but it's kinda nice not having to pay $6 for a vial.

 

[JR_Brewer]

Looks like the other guys have answered most of these pretty well, but I'll add my 2 cents on a few of these questions...

2) I have a three keg set up and will ultimately keg this. Do I really need to rack into a secondary?

You don't have to rack to secondary. However, it will keep some of the sediment out of the keg, and one can argue that it will clear better. Somebody mentioned using Super-Kleer (never used it but heard it's great), or you could also use Pectic Enzyme (I use it, works just fine)

4) If I was going to spice, I was going to do it after primary fermentation. Is there any gotchas I need to worry about?

Tip - don't overspice! You can always add more spices when you're kegging... you can't take spices away!

2) Add about two pounds of brown sugar (is this needed??)

Sugar additions are not required, they boost ABV, and brown sugar will add a small flavor component. Most apple juice comes in around 1.050 OG, which yields in the ballpark of 5% ABV. If that's enough for you, go with it, no need to add sugar.

 

[Gitmoe]

Maybe I should add after fermentations started, I'll try it on my next batch. I add it to all my beers but at the end of boil. Since there's no boil with cider I pop them into a starter since I'm using washed yeast. Speaking of which, you ever use Hefe yeast in a cider... my last jar of washed is a hefe and think I might pop that in on the next batch to see how it turns out. Once I run out I'll be doing cider yeast I think, but it's kinda nice not having to pay $6 for a vial.

I've never personally used wheat yeast in a cider. It's on my radar as something to try. Last year I used wine yeast, cider yeasts, Belgian yeasts, and English Ale strains. So far I've come to prefer English strains. If you've read the cider article in the last BYO magazine they tested several yeast strains in cider and then ranked them according to a blind tasting. White Labs 002 came out in first overall. WL002 is the same as Wyeast 1968 which is my favorite strain for beer brewing. I have a Honeycrisp and a Granny Smith cider fermenting with 1968 right now. I'm very excited to see how it comes out. Last year I used Nottingham and Wyeast 1098. Both were very good. I work at a LHBS as my day job. Last week I had a customer purchase a Wyeast wheat strain for his cider. I asked him to bring us a sample when it's finished. I've heard of people having good success with wheat yeasts in cider...

 

[LamIAm]

More questions....

1) I have some 5/16"s tubing that I got from HD for another project. It is most likely not food grade. Will this work as the blow off hose if I sterilize?

2) I can't find my stoppers. The blue cube does have a smaller whole to vent. Could I drill that out and push the 5/16" snuggly into it?

If the answer to either of the above are no, I'll stop by the LHBS sometime next week. I was hoping to get this going tonight though.

 

[jkoegel]

1)Any tubing will work for blow-off tube, it does not contact the cider you will be drinking. I use the clear vinyl tubing from LOWES. Have no idea if it is food grade or not.
2)As long as you do not restrict the diameter of the tubing too much and you have an air tight seal, go with whatever works. It's just a blow off tube. Just make sure its air tight. If it leaks after primary fermentation is complete you will probably have some apple cider vinegar on your hands after a couple months.

 

[LamIAm]

2) As long as you do not restrict the diameter of the tubing too much and you have an air tight seal, go with whatever works. It's just a blow off tube. Just make sure its air tight. If it leaks after primary fermentation is complete you will probably have some apple cider vinegar on your hands after a couple months.

One of the guys here was going to HD so I had him get me a stopper.

Would it be wise to switch to a stopper without a hole after primary fermentation so that its completely sealed? Or do I went to still let it "breath"?

 

[Gitmoe]

Let it breath even after fermentation. If your fermenting container has enough space I wouldn't even worry about a blow off. Cider doesn't really make a "krausen" like beer does. It's not nearly as much of an issue...

 

[LamIAm]

So things came together pretty easily.

I did let half a gallon of apple cider warm to room temp before I pitched the yeast. I let it hydrate for 30 minutes but it didn't really proof.

It is in my basement right now, which is around 64 - 66 degrees. I'll check on it in a few days.

 

[LamIAm]

After reading about oxidation, I'm getting a little paranoid.

I have 2 gallons of head space in my primary. Do I need to worry about too much oxygen? I have a CO2 tank but its in my garage and my primary is in the basement.

 

[LamIAm]

Update on my cider.

I had it in the primary for 18 days. Gravity had settled out to about 1.005 and taste was fairly dry and I lost the apple taste. I think adding the 2 lbs of brown sugar was a bad choice.

I crashed in my garage (about 34 degrees) for 3 days (after some jostling around on the first day). Racked into a bucket to back sweeten. I did one can, mixed and decided to add a second can of FCAJ. I added some potassium sorbate and racked it into my keg. It is force carbing now.

My wife likes it dry. I'm a little princess and like a little more apple taste. I figure if we don't get the taste we want by tomorrow, I'll add another can of FCAJ and try it again.

OG: 1.065
FG: 1.005
ABV (before backsweeten): 7.48%

Not too concerned about determining true ABV with the FCAJ. I figure 7.35 % to 7.4% is a good guestimation.