First Time Brew: Raspberry-Ginger Cider

[Kizraeus]

Hey folks!
This will be my first time brewing, and I'd hugely appreciate any feedback on my procedure. My ideal product will be 23L of a dry, crisp, high alcohol cider flavored with raspberry and ginger. I've been asking around and doing my research, and this is my rough process:

Cider Procedure:
1. Sanitize primary bucket and its accessories.
2. Add apple cider to primary bucket with the X ground Campden tablets (1 per gallon?)
3. Seal primary bucket and let sit for 48 hours.
4. Add the following components to the primary bucket:
-1 Packet of champagne yeast
-Yeast Nutrient
-Pectic enzyme
-Acid Blend
-Pasteurized fruit blend (Raspberries, ginger, water, and brown sugar boiled down and strained)
5. Re-seal primary bucket and ferment for 10 days.
6. Transfer mixture to 23L carboy. Ferment for 3 months.

My biggest concern here is losing the fresh flavor of the raspberry and ginger, since I'll be putting it in for primary fermentation. I was told I should have it in primary if I want a dry end product, but I would ideally like to have both. Any ideas?

 

[WilliamSlayer]

Your procedure looks fine except for the addition of the fruit during primary fermentation. That is where I would differ from you. I always add my fruit to the secondary fermentation leaving enough space at the top of the carboy for foam from the secondary fermentation. If you add the fruit during primary fermentation, you will lose a lot of the flavor during the process. Consider adding the fruit during the transfer to a carboy because it will keep much of that flavor for you. Also, you will then have to transfer again to another carboy. Other than that, it looks like you are about to start a great batch!

 

[WilliamSlayer]

Oh, I forgot to mention that you should not worry about dryness if adding the fruit to the secondary fermentation. The fruit will be added, and fermentation will take The Cider back down to dryness again when the secondary fermentation is finished. Adding the fruit to the secondary does not make for a sweeter product, just better flavor!

 

[Kizraeus]

Neat, thanks!

Should I consider using a different kind of yeast? I've been told that should I go ahead with champagne yeast my product will have "essentially no flavor" :/
WLP002/005 were recommended instead (ale yeasts).

Also, is 10 days enough time for primary? I've got to have it racked to secondary and by the 19th of June, as I leave town for a few months.

Thanks!

 

[WilliamSlayer]

Neat, thanks!

Should I consider using a different kind of yeast? I've been told that should I go ahead with champagne yeast my product will have "essentially no flavor" :/
WLP002/005 were recommended instead (ale yeasts).

Also, is 10 days enough time for primary? I've got to have it racked to secondary and by the 19th of June, as I leave town for a few months.

Thanks!

The champagne yeast is not my choice for ciders. But I will be the first to say it is a safe choice. Most campaign yeasts are very hardy and do not fail. I prefer to use Lalvin D-47 or 1116 when using wine yeast. Nottingham and BRY-97 are my go-to choices for ale yeasts.

10 days in primary should be fine. Most fermentations are finished within a week unless you have extremely high starting gravities, or extremely low temperatures for fermentation. Keep me posted!

 

[Kizraeus]

Will do!

I'm just letting my EC-1118 sit in some warm water before I add it to my juice!
Since my primary bucket doesn't have a valve spot in the lid, I'm just resting the lid ontop of the container unsealed instead.

Should I add any additional sugar? I'm aiming for 8-10% alcohol content.

 

[WilliamSlayer]

Yes. A typical juice will yeild 5-6% abv. To get a nice 8-9% try adding around 3-4 lbs of extra fermentable sugars (I use brown sugar) of whatever you want.

 

[DaMonkey]

1. Sanitize primary bucket and its accessories.

Including an air lock I hope.

 

[DaMonkey]

Will do!

I'm just letting my EC-1118 sit in some warm water before I add it to my juice!
Since my primary bucket doesn't have a valve spot in the lid, I'm just resting the lid ontop of the container unsealed instead.

Should I add any additional sugar? I'm aiming for 8-10% alcohol content.

EC-1118 has the same effect as champagne yeast. It is said to blow off flavor/smell due to vigorous fermentation. I am still not sure how true that is.

 

[Kizraeus]

No air lock. I'm doing an open ferment for my primary.
Which basically just means I've got my 23L of juice and yeast in my primary bucket, with the lid placed on top. It's not airtight, so the CO2 can escape, but it blocks particulate debris. So no airlock. Is this a problem?

I'm noticing fruit flies around it though, so I'm going to wipe down the seams again.

Also, my initial gravity was 1.044. I'm going to run out today and pick up some brown sugar. Should I dissolve it in hot water first, or put it straight in?

Update: I just prepared a brown sugar (with some white sugar) solution to bolster my initial sugar content. 3.782 lbs in 3 cups of water, I'm just waiting for it to cool now before adding it. I'll retake my hydrometer reading again after I add my sugar solution, though since I've already had my yeast in for a day it will be off my an amount.

Further Update: New initial gravity reads 1.062 following the addition of sugar solution, approximately 22 hours after yeast was pitched.

 

[WilliamSlayer]

Ok. You added yeast nutrient at the beginning, so the extra sugar will just extend the fermentation process out a few days.

My secondary usually takes a few weeks to fully extract the flavours from whatever I added. Also it willl take a week or so for the secondary fermentation. I know you had mentioned that you were going away for a bit. Think you are able to swing this on your time table?

 

[Dhelderman]

No air lock. I'm doing an open ferment for my primary.
Which basically just means I've got my 23L of juice and yeast in my primary bucket, with the lid placed on top. It's not airtight, so the CO2 can escape, but it blocks particulate debris. So no airlock. Is this a problem?

I'm noticing fruit flies around it though, so I'm going to wipe down the seams again.

Also, my initial gravity was 1.044. I'm going to run out today and pick up some brown sugar. Should I dissolve it in hot water first, or put it straight in?

Update: I just prepared a brown sugar (with some white sugar) solution to bolster my initial sugar content. 3.782 lbs in 3 cups of water, I'm just waiting for it to cool now before adding it. I'll retake my hydrometer reading again after I add my sugar solution, though since I've already had my yeast in for a day it will be off my an amount.

Further Update: New initial gravity reads 1.062 following the addition of sugar solution, approximately 22 hours after yeast was pitched.

Excited to see where this goes and how your cider turns out. I'm thinking I may make the exact same thing for my next batch. Keep us posted!

 

[Kizraeus]

Ok. You added yeast nutrient at the beginning, so the extra sugar will just extend the fermentation process out a few days.

My secondary usually takes a few weeks to fully extract the flavours from whatever I added. Also it willl take a week or so for the secondary fermentation. I know you had mentioned that you were going away for a bit. Think you are able to swing this on your time table?

I don't intend to do secondary while I'm still here. My plan as it stands right now is to have my primary fermentation complete by the 18th of June (as I leave the next day and return in late August), and rack it into a carboy for secondary fermentation on the same day with my pasteurized fruit matter. So my secondary fermentation will take place over the 9 or so weeks of summer that I'm gone, if not longer into when I'm back.

Is 9 weeks in secondary too long?

 

[skadalajara]

Is 9 weeks in secondary too long?

No.

Just make sure your airlock doesn't run dry.
When I'm going to let something sit long term, I fill a growler with StarSan and put a blowoff tube into it. Takes much longer to dry out.

 

[Kizraeus]

No.

Just make sure your airlock doesn't run dry.
When I'm going to let something sit long term, I fill a growler with StarSan and put a blowoff tube into it. Takes much longer to dry out.

I don't have any airlocks with a blow off attachment/nozzle, just the typical three piece ones.
One question though regarding open primary fermentation (fermenting in a primary bucket with the lid placed on top, but not sealed): Can I open the lid and peek inside during primary fermentation? Or will this significantly increase my chances of contamination/spoilage?

 

[WilliamSlayer]

I don't have any airlocks with a blow off attachment/nozzle, just the typical three piece ones.
One question though regarding open primary fermentation (fermenting in a primary bucket with the lid placed on top, but not sealed): Can I open the lid and peek inside during primary fermentation? Or will this significantly increase my chances of contamination/spoilage?

As long as your fermentation is active you are pretty safe taking a peek. (Hard to resist doing so... I know!)

I agree about leaving your fermentation process alone for 9 weeks. Dried out air locks should scare you. Get your self a 'double bubbler' if you can as they take a lot longer to dry out.

Also, you may just wznt to wait on adding the fruits until you get home. I would be a bit on edge if I left an active fermentation for months. Autolysis (the process of yeast cells going dormant and then decomposing in your brew) can beging in about 6weeks after fermentation stops. Save yourself the worry about it by waiting till you return. I would rack to secondary... but not add the fruit.

When you return you can add the fruit and pitch a bit more yeast to restart fermentation.

 

[phug]

I wouldn't leave it on the fruit in secondary for 9 weeks if that's what you're asking

 

[Kizraeus]

As long as your fermentation is active you are pretty safe taking a peek. (Hard to resist doing so... I know!)

I agree about leaving your fermentation process alone for 9 weeks. Dried out air locks should scare you. Get your self a 'double bubbler' if you can as they take a lot longer to dry out.

Also, you may just wznt to wait on adding the fruits until you get home. I would be a bit on edge if I left an active fermentation for months. Autolysis (the process of yeast cells going dormant and then decomposing in your brew) can beging in about 6weeks after fermentation stops. Save yourself the worry about it by waiting till you return. I would rack to secondary... but not add the fruit.

When you return you can add the fruit and pitch a bit more yeast to restart fermentation.

Ahhhh, ok. I'll rack it to secondary then and leave adding my fruit mash until I get back. What will actually take place during secondary then? Is it just to siphon off the cider from the solids and yeast? And in that case, will much further fermentation take place during secondary, or is more of an 'aging' process?

I just took a peek, and it at least sounds like primary fermentation has stopped, as I can no longer hear the carbonation/fizzling.

If I started with an SG of 1.062, can anyone guess what value will indicate the end of primary fermentation?

 

[WilliamSlayer]

Your primary fermentation will be done when you reach 0 on your hydrometer . Secondary fermentation implies just that. is that you are planning on further fermentation but many people refer to their resting, or aging stage as the secondary fermentation.

I would recommend that you rack over and when you return from your time away, you will see that some sediment has fallen out of suspension. However, if you leave the cider in its primary fermentation for that entire 9 weeks you are gone, autolysis will most definitely take place adding tons of off flavors to your brew. The sediment and f few yeast particles that will settle out in your secondary fermentation should not affect your flavor too much if at all.

 

[Kizraeus]

Your primary fermentation will be done when you reach 0 on your hydrometer . Secondary fermentation implies just that. is that you are planning on further fermentation but many people refer to their resting, or aging stage as the secondary fermentation.

I would recommend that you rack over and when you return from your time away, you will see that some sediment has fallen out of suspension. However, if you leave the cider in its primary fermentation for that entire 9 weeks you are gone, autolysis will most definitely take place adding tons of off flavors to your brew. The sediment and f few yeast particles that will settle out in your secondary fermentation should not affect your flavor too much if at all.

Ahhh, ok. Does secondary fermentation typically require pitching additional yeast? My impression of racking is that you lose a fair amount of your yeast content doing it.

And on that note, if I rack it in the next few days, wouldn't this solve the autolysis problem?

Theoretically, if I added my fruit matter directly after racking to secondary fermentation, would it even be able to ferment the additional sugars introduced by the fruit? Or would I have to immediately pitch more yeast due the loss from racking?

Update: Just took a SG reading and I'm already sitting at 0.995. Looks like the yeast gutted the sugar content, I'm going to rack to secondary ASAP.

 

[phug]

You will still have more than enough yeast left to ferment anything else you add

 

[WilliamSlayer]

If you started the secondary fermentation right away (by adding the fruit after racking) then fermentation would start up again with no problem. Even when you seem to have a clear brew, there can be millions of yeast cells floating in suspension. However, 9 weeks from now when you return, gravity will have worked its magic and dropped most of the yeast out of your brew and they will have died of from not having any food to eat (sugar).

So, for secondary fermentation, if you start it right away there is no need for extra yeast, but you will probably need to pitch a little bit of extra yeast when you add the fruit after such a long time. And, by 'a little bit' I mean 1/2 a packet or so.

 

[Kizraeus]

If you started the secondary fermentation right away (by adding the fruit after racking) then fermentation would start up again with no problem. Even when you seem to have a clear brew, there can be millions of yeast cells floating in suspension. However, 9 weeks from now when you return, gravity will have worked its magic and dropped most of the yeast out of your brew and they will have died of from not having any food to eat (sugar).

So, for secondary fermentation, if you start it right away there is no need for extra yeast, but you will probably need to pitch a little bit of extra yeast when you add the fruit after such a long time. And, by 'a little bit' I mean 1/2 a packet or so.

Ok, thanks. I did indeed rack my primary into a carboy, but didn't add the fruit per your advice. However, since my SG (0.095) is so low (indicating low sugar), won't the yeast surely die over the next 9 weeks? Why can't I just add the fruit matter now and have it ready for my return? This way the yeast will have some source of sugar to survive over the 9 weeks. Furthermore, won't the yeast die at some point or another regardless?

From what I understand, you suggested not adding the fruit to avoid autolysis and the resulting off-flavors. But it would seem like they're going to die regardless.

 

[skadalajara]

Most of the yeast won't actually die in the time periods you're talking about. Some will, but the majority will simply go into a state of dormancy.
As for autolysis, yrs, it is a risk. But I've left ciders in primary that long with no discernable off flavors developing.
Some yeast strains will handle a long term lack of sugars/O2 better than others.

 

[WilliamSlayer]

Ok, thanks. I did indeed rack my primary into a carboy, but didn't add the fruit per your advice. However, since my SG (0.095) is so low (indicating low sugar), won't the yeast surely die over the next 9 weeks? Why can't I just add the fruit matter now and have it ready for my return? This way the yeast will have some source of sugar to survive over the 9 weeks. Furthermore, won't the yeast die at some point or another regardless?

From what I understand, you suggested not adding the fruit to avoid autolysis and the resulting off-flavors. But it would seem like they're going to die regardless.

It is understandable that you would think of yeast as thinking reasoning creatures. We are thinking reasoning creatures after all.

However, yeast are more like a fat guy at the buffet. They will eat everything they can as quickly as possible and then go dormant until the next meal, when they will start the process all over again.

Adding the fruit before you leave for nine weeks would mean the yeast would feast upon the sugars for approximately one week, and then go back into dormancy leaving you with eight weeks instead of 9 weeks for all this is to happen.

 

[Kizraeus]

It is understandable that you would think of yeast as thinking reasoning creatures. We are thinking reasoning creatures after all.

However, yeast are more like a fat guy at the buffet. They will eat everything they can as quickly as possible and then go dormant until the next meal, when they will start the process all over again.

Adding the fruit before you leave for nine weeks would mean the yeast would feast upon the sugars for approximately one week, and then go back into dormancy leaving you with eight weeks instead of 9 weeks for all this is to happen.

Hmmh, ok. I still don't understand what the difference will be if I had already added my fruit matter. Explain to me like I'm 5?

Where I wait to add it, the yeast are dormant for the next 9 weeks.

Where I theoretically have already added it, the yeast feast for a week and are dormant for the following 8 weeks. Only now in this scenario I also have my fruit matter sitting in the cider for 9 weeks.

Where does the difference come in? In theory, wouldn't a longer exposure to the fruit matter be a better thing?

Thanks for taking the time to explain all this! I really appreciate it!

 

[phug]

Once you get past a certain point the fruit matter aren't contributing anything else. Unfortunately raspberries like to float and with the co2 production they like to push up above the surface, which now exposes them and increases the chance of berry spoilage. How much is debatable. I just wasn't comfortable staring at those berries for more than two weeks. They go pale, and it's hard to tell if what you're seeing is hypochondria or if it's the beginnings of mold on the fruit. Two months wait edited your fruit addition won't harm the yeast and they'll be fine when you add the fruit

 

[WilliamSlayer]

The key is the AMMOUNT of yeast. You have racked off of the primary fermentation, which means you have significantly less yeast in your Brew currently. Restarting fermentation would mean the yeast begin to reproduce again doubling tripling quadrupling the amount of yeast that are in the brew. this increase in yeast will increase the likelihood of some of them dying and spoiling your beer and will increase the amount of off flavors created by that dying.