First Stout recipe: Water Chemistry Help Needed

[Farfrom83]

Hey now everybody, i'm putting together a pilot All Grain Stout recipe using Beersmith and Bru'n Water. I'm having trouble trying to nail down the water chemistry since the PH is estimated to plunge because of all the dark roasted grains. Now in order to raise that PH i'm forced to use Baking soda which in return raises sodium and bicarbonate to questionable levels. I'm concerned these elevated levels may have ill effects on the final product so i'm here looking for any suggestions,help,knowledge,or tips to make my future brew day go as smooth as possible.

Grain Bill: 2.40 Gal. Batch size
- 2 Row: 4lb 7.5 oz
- Chocolate Malt: 5.5 oz
- 2.8 oz: Brown Malt (CRISP)
- 2.8 oz: Carafa II
- 2.8 oz: Crystal 60L
- 2.8 oz: Roasted Barley
- 6.1 oz: Lactose

Estimated OG: 1.063
Estimated FG: 1.012
Estimated ABV: 6.4%

Starting Water Profile:
- Calcium: 15
- Mag: 2
- Sodium: 27
- Sulfate: 12
- Chloride: 50
-Bicarbonate: 47

Target Water Profile:
- Calcium:82
- Mag:10
- Sodium:27
- Sulfate: 55
- Chloride: 125
-Bicarbonate: 85

Water Additions to get to Target:
- Gypsum: 0.7g added to Mash, 0.9g added to Sparge
- Calcium Chloride: 1.1g added to Mash, 1.5g added to Sparge
- Baking Soda: 1.3g added to Mash

Final Profile:
- Calcium: 81
- Mag: 2
- Sodium: 71
- Sulfate: 57
- Chloride: 134
-Bicarbonate: 162

Now i'm not a huge fan of overly dry stouts so my goal is to brew something that is a little clean on the finish and doesn't linger on the palette for weeks. The Lactose was added to try to balance out the roast with some sweetness.

Estimate PH: 5.30 @ Room Temp, Without baking soda it drops to 4.98 according to Bru'n Water.

 

[hottpeper13]

I would never add bicarb to mash,I would take out the chocolate and roast malt from the mash profile and see what the pH is on your program. If in range just steep those grains in the vorlof and mashout .

 

[mabrungard]

That recipe should be tasty. I like the nuances you'll add with the brown, crystal, and roasted malts.

While reserving the more acidic grains like the roasted and crystal malts from the main mash will help keep the pH from dropping too low during the mash, the wort pH in the kettle will still be lower than desirable when those malts are added late in the mash. There is no free lunch. In the case of most Porters and Stouts, their flavor benefits from pushing the kettle wort pH up a bit. Keeping it in the 5.4 to 5.6 range has proven to help soften and smooth roast flavors.

I see that you're adding quite a bit of chloride to the water. That isn't really necessary and since you're doing it with calcium chloride addition, its driving pH lower. I would reduce that addition to raise the chloride only into the 70 to 80 ppm range. You could also reduce the sulfate content with a slight reduction in the gypsum addition. Don't take all the sulfate out, since most beers need a bit to help dry the finish. Both of those measures will reduce the calcium content and its pH reducing effect. I find that dark beers tend to clear up very well and there is no need for high calcium in your water in order to get the beer to clear. 50 ppm minimum Ca is OK.

Don't be afraid of sodium in your mashing water. It is DEFINITELY an asset and improvement for flavor in dark styles. Since you only add baking soda to the mash, the mash's elevated sodium content is eventually diluted by the low sodium sparging water. If your mashing and sparging volumes are similar, that means that the sodium content in the kettle could be cut down to about half. So don't freak out if the sodium content in the mash is high. The supporter's version of Bru'n Water does this calculation for you and you can see how the finished wort concentrations actually stack up.

 

[Farfrom83]

That recipe should be tasty. I like the nuances you'll add with the brown, crystal, and roasted malts.

While reserving the more acidic grains like the roasted and crystal malts from the main mash will help keep the pH from dropping too low during the mash, the wort pH in the kettle will still be lower than desirable when those malts are added late in the mash. There is no free lunch. In the case of most Porters and Stouts, their flavor benefits from pushing the kettle wort pH up a bit. Keeping it in the 5.4 to 5.6 range has proven to help soften and smooth roast flavors.

I see that you're adding quite a bit of chloride to the water. That isn't really necessary and since you're doing it with calcium chloride addition, its driving pH lower. I would reduce that addition to raise the chloride only into the 70 to 80 ppm range. You could also reduce the sulfate content with a slight reduction in the gypsum addition. Don't take all the sulfate out, since most beers need a bit to help dry the finish. Both of those measures will reduce the calcium content and its pH reducing effect. I find that dark beers tend to clear up very well and there is no need for high calcium in your water in order to get the beer to clear. 50 ppm minimum Ca is OK.

Don't be afraid of sodium in your mashing water. It is DEFINITELY an asset and improvement for flavor in dark styles. Since you only add baking soda to the mash, the mash's elevated sodium content is eventually diluted by the low sodium sparging water. If your mashing and sparging volumes are similar, that means that the sodium content in the kettle could be cut down to about half. So don't freak out if the sodium content in the mash is high. The supporter's version of Bru'n Water does this calculation for you and you can see how the finished wort concentrations actually stack up.

Thanks for in depth reply, with that said I tweaked the additions and finished with a profile that looks like the following:

- calcium: 53
- mag: 2
- sodium: 82( before dilution from sparge water)
- sulfate: 57
- chloride: 83
- bicarbonate: 191

How does that look?

Should the high bicarbonate number of 191 be anything to be concerned about? Or will that also dilute downward too?

 

[mabrungard]

The bicarbonate value is meaningless. It will ultimately be neutralized by the mash acids. The bicarbonate content is only a means to an end...the wort pH.

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

Another possibility would be to use pickling lime to raise pH. It also adds calcium so keep an eye on that. You add it to your mash AFTER dough-in, NOT to your mash water. I defer to Martin as to whether baking soda or lime is preferable and the pros and cons of each. I've had good luck with lime.

 

[csurowiec]

I also have had good luck using pickling lime on stouts and porters to adjust the pH. I do not know all the pros and cons of each but I am curious to hear the thoughts of those with more knowledge.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Another possibility would be to use pickling lime to raise pH. It also adds calcium so keep an eye on that. You add it to your mash AFTER dough-in, NOT to your mash water. I defer to Martin as to whether baking soda or lime is preferable and the pros and cons of each. I've had good luck with lime.

Why do you add it after dough-in?

 

[mabrungard]

You add it to your mash AFTER dough-in, NOT to your mash water.

While adding lime to hard water would cause calcium carbonate to precipitate, we are usually adding lime to water with low calcium (soft water) and we don't need to worry about that precipitation reaction. It's OK (and preferred) to add your lime to your mashing water and then add the grain. That way, the minerals are well-distributed and the pH is more likely to be even.

 

[helibrewer]

I use Pickling Lime also and since I start with RO water, carbonate precipitation is not an issue/concern....I like getting the extra Ca and avoiding the carbonate that you would get from Baking Soda.

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

While adding lime to hard water would cause calcium carbonate to precipitate, we are usually adding lime to water with low calcium (soft water) and we don't need to worry about that precipitation reaction. It's OK (and preferred) to add your lime to your mashing water and then add the grain. That way, the minerals are well-distributed and the pH is more likely to be even.

Martin, thanks for the clarification. Years ago I was told by my former LHBS not to add lime directly to the mash liquor. Something about a pH spike or some evil reaction. He said to add after dough-in. Adding to the water before mash makes life a lot easier.

 

[HomeDrewBrew]

Sorry to bump this but where does everyone find pickling lime?.
Thanks

 

[stpug]

Sorry to bump this but where does everyone find pickling lime?.
Thanks

The canning section of your grocery store - that's were I found mine. A lifetime's supply for just a couple bucks.

 

[csurowiec]

I found pickling lime in the spices section of my local Latino grocery. It is used to treat corn to chemically change it to then get ground into masa harina.

 

[HomeDrewBrew]

Thank you

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

Good ol' Walmart.