First Sour Mash/Berliner recipe

[Gibberoni]

Hello all, I am hoping that you all can take a look at this recipe and mash schedule, and advise if it is appropriate, and will hopefully make a good tart beer in the coming warmer months! Please keep in mind I want to keep all the bugs pre-boil side.

Basic Info:
Batch Size: 6 gallons
Primary Fermentation: 14 days @ 65*F
Boil Time: 60 Minutes
OG: 1.031
IBU: 6.8
Color: 2.4 SRM
ABV: 3.0%

Ingredients:
4.75 lb Belgian Pilsner (2-row) - 68%
2.25 lb Belgian Wheat Malt - 32%
.15 oz Hallertau @ 60
.85 oz Hallertau @ 10
German Wheat Yeast (Wyeast 3333)

Mashing:
Mash in to hit 152*F for 60 minutes @ 1.25 qt/lb
Add ice water to bring temp down to 120. Pop lid and keep in temp stable room.
Monitor temp twice a day. Add hot water if needed to keep temp at 100*F.
After 3 days OR pH drops to 3.5, mash out and batch sparge.

The rest of the fermentation will go as usual. Hopefully ending the mash at 3.5pH will get the desired sour tartness I am looking for.

 

[flhb]

I highly suggest using the sour wort method and not the sour mash. Sour worting helps keep a lot of the undesirable bugs out and gives you a clean tart taste. Also, you don't have to worry about it smelling like a dumpster.

I follow the technique in this Basic Brewing Video episode and make some really great beer as a result:

http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=november-21-2014-sour-wort-berliner-weisse

To keep the temp at the desired level, I put the carboy in a cooler and surround it with hot water.

 

[Gibberoni]

I am not worried about the smell, I have forgotten grains in my tun for over a month before. Now THAT SMELLS!

The one thing I do not want to do is get another fermenter infected. I have 2 6 gal fermenters now that are "clean", and a 5 gal that is "brett". I could use the brett one, but IIRC brett grows like a monster, and I hate the brett taste. I want none of that in this brew.

 

[MagicMatt]

I think the issue with an "infected" fermenter is overstated. As long as you utilize proper cleaning habits, nothing should be able to remain behind in the carboy. If so, that means you're not cleaning your equipment fully normally. Hot water, PBW, and a good scrub is all that is needed. If you're really worried, put a bit of diluted bleach in it and scrub again. Just make sure to wash very thoroughly several times with hot water if you use any bleach.

 

[Grannyknot]

Question, do you have a thermowell thermometer set up in your mash tun, or are you planning on opening it and sticking an instant read down into the mash?

 

[flhb]

I am not worried about the smell, I have forgotten grains in my tun for over a month before. Now THAT SMELLS!

The one thing I do not want to do is get another fermenter infected. I have 2 6 gal fermenters now that are "clean", and a 5 gal that is "brett". I could use the brett one, but IIRC brett grows like a monster, and I hate the brett taste. I want none of that in this brew.

I can understand being cautious but I ensure you that you can rid the carboy of the lacto (assuming that you are using glass). But I've heard other people have success with sour mashing, so I'm sure that you can get some good beer.

 

[Gibberoni]

I think the issue with an "infected" fermenter is overstated. As long as you utilize proper cleaning habits, nothing should be able to remain behind in the carboy. If so, that means you're not cleaning your equipment fully normally. Hot water, PBW, and a good scrub is all that is needed. If you're really worried, put a bit of diluted bleach in it and scrub again. Just make sure to wash very thoroughly several times with hot water if you use any bleach.

I should note that I use plastic carboys. I age beer in my kegs, so I have not found a need for glass yet. I have not gotten an infection in any of my brews (except the intended). I have pretty sanitary habits with my brews.

Question, do you have a thermowell thermometer set up in your mash tun, or are you planning on opening it and sticking an instant read down into the mash?

I will be going in there for temp (thank god for thermapen. Quick in and out!) And will be using the valve to pour a beaker for pH reads.

 

[Grannyknot]

I will be going in there for temp (thank god for thermapen. Quick in and out!) And will be using the valve to pour a beaker for pH reads.

Sounds like you have a pretty good handle on things.
If you're still open to suggestion, I think souring in the kettle is a great way to go, if you have a valve & guage on your kettle. No adding hot water, just collect a full volume of wort, get to 110, wrap in a blanket, and turn your burner on occasionally.

 

[Gibberoni]

Grannyknot, can you elaborate on this? When you say sour in the kettle, are you meaning to do a normal mash (60 min @ 152), sparge and get everything into the kettle, then add lacto in the kettle?

I can see benefits to this. But I have some questions! About how long would it take to get a pretty decent tartness out of the wort? I plan on doing 2 brews next saturday, and will need the kettle to be ready to go with another brew pretty soon.

The timing is really my only concern. I know that you can get a good funk with mashing for 2-3 days. Is it the same for kettle souring? I will also need to move the kettle constantly, but I assume that wont affect the lacto.

 

[Grannyknot]

Grannyknot, can you elaborate on this? When you say sour in the kettle, are you meaning to do a normal mash (60 min @ 152), sparge and get everything into the kettle, then add lacto in the kettle?

I can see benefits to this. But I have some questions! About how long would it take to get a pretty decent tartness out of the wort? I plan on doing 2 brews next saturday, and will need the kettle to be ready to go with another brew pretty soon.

The timing is really my only concern. I know that you can get a good funk with mashing for 2-3 days. Is it the same for kettle souring? I will also need to move the kettle constantly, but I assume that wont affect the lacto.

Yes, normal mash & sparge. Collect all wort in your kettle, cool to 110*ish. Add lacto. Wrap your kettle in a blanket.

Last Friday night around 9pm, I did this exact process.
Checked the pH every 10 hours, which was right around the time I needed to bump the temp up anyway. Sunday morning when i checked it at 8am, it was at pH of 3.4 so I started the boil and the rest was normal brewing process.

 

[whrswoldo]

Yes, normal mash & sparge. Collect all wort in your kettle, cool to 110*ish. Add lacto. Wrap your kettle in a blanket.

Last Friday night around 9pm, I did this exact process.
Checked the pH every 10 hours, which was right around the time I needed to bump the temp up anyway. Sunday morning when i checked it at 8am, it was at pH of 3.4 so I started the boil and the rest was normal brewing process.

What do you use to check pH? I'm debating between using paper and going electronic for my first Berliner attempt.

 

[Gibberoni]

Yes, normal mash & sparge. Collect all wort in your kettle, cool to 110*ish. Add lacto. Wrap your kettle in a blanket.

Last Friday night around 9pm, I did this exact process.
Checked the pH every 10 hours, which was right around the time I needed to bump the temp up anyway. Sunday morning when i checked it at 8am, it was at pH of 3.4 so I started the boil and the rest was normal brewing process.

Grannyknot, thanks! One last question. Do you attempt to remove the yeast from the pot before you boil? Seems odd to be to just fire it up and boil with little yeasties running around in there, without at least attempting to filter them out a little.

@whrswoldo, I would get a pH meter. The paper will be very hard to read correctly, as the beer is not clear, and will discolor the paper all on its own! You can get a decent pH meter on amazon for $20. Thats what I have been using.

 

[Grannyknot]

What do you use to check pH? I'm debating between using paper and going electronic for my first Berliner attempt.

most definitely go electronic.
you can get a pH meter on amazon right now for like $10 right now, but buy the best one you can afford. Most of them say ATC, but temperature compensation on some of them is much slower than others.

 

[Grannyknot]

Grannyknot, thanks! One last question. Do you attempt to remove the yeast from the pot before you boil? Seems odd to be to just fire it up and boil with little yeasties running around in there, without at least attempting to filter them out a little.

its not yeast, its bacteria. i don't worry about removing it. Not even sure how you would. temps above 120 will kill it off.

what are you planning to sour it with?

 

[christyle]

I highly suggest using the sour wort method and not the sour mash. Sour worting helps keep a lot of the undesirable bugs out and gives you a clean tart taste. Also, you don't have to worry about it smelling like a dumpster.

How does sour wort differ from sour mash as far as getting "undesireable bugs"? Are you boiling for a short length to kill anything, then pitching pure lacto? I've used a sour mash a few times and everything came out pretty good.

@gibberoni I think your hop schedule is interesting. Why the 10 min addition? You normally don't want the hops really having any presence in this kind of beer, just a bittering addition to get IBUs at around 5 or so.

 

[JoshuaW]

How does sour wort differ from sour mash as far as getting "undesireable bugs"? Are you boiling for a short length to kill anything, then pitching pure lacto? I've used a sour mash a few times and everything came out pretty good.

I havent done it yet, but Im planning in a couple weeks. Yes, typically sour wort involves a 15 minute boil or so to sterilize the wort prior to souring. You then pitch the lacto, which will ensure that you have a clean pitch.

 

[flhb]

How does sour wort differ from sour mash as far as getting "undesireable bugs"? Are you boiling for a short length to kill anything, then pitching pure lacto? I've used a sour mash a few times and everything came out pretty good.

@gibberoni I think your hop schedule is interesting. Why the 10 min addition? You normally don't want the hops really having any presence in this kind of beer, just a bittering addition to get IBUs at around 5 or so.

When you use the sour wort technique, you put the wort (without the grain) into a carboy and fill it all the way to the top. This eliminates any head space and helps ensure that oxygen doesn't come into contact with the wort. The bugs we are trying to avoid need that oxygen to do their thing. When you are just sour mashing, it is very difficult to keep most of the oxygen away from your wort, although there are, as you probably know, ways to mitigate it. By keeping your wort free of oxygen, you are able to produce a very clean tasting beer with less hassle.

 

[christyle]

When you use the sour wort technique, you put the wort (without the grain) into a carboy and fill it all the way to the top.

Interesting, I've never heard of that method before, although it makes sense, just a lot of work haha. I only knew of the type where you do a small boil to kill off anything, then pitch lacto. I leave my mash in my cooler, pitch some spiking grains for lacto and then cover with saran wrap per this recipe. My raspberry version has been my most popular beer.

 

[flhb]

Interesting, I've never heard of that method before, although it makes sense, just a lot of work haha. I only knew of the type where you do a small boil to kill off anything, then pitch lacto. I leave my mash in my cooler, pitch some spiking grains for lacto and then cover with saran wrap per this recipe. My raspberry version has been my most popular beer.

I included a Basic Brewing Video in my first post on this topic which shows you how it's done if you are interested. James Spencer also did an episode on sour mashing as well which you can find here:

http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=october-31-2012-sour-mash-berliner-weisse

I prefer the sour wort technique because I think the chances of a serious off-flavor during the souring portion is lower and I don't have to deal with a smelly mash or cleaning a pellicle off the top. You say it sounds like more work to sour wort, I just think it's different work.

 

[christyle]

I figured it would be in the video, i just hadn't watched it here at work. My current method involves only a prolonged (~3 day) mash time. This new method requires an additional short boil, cooling, and transferring into and out of a carboy. I haven't gotten the exact product I was hoping for with my method, so I'm open for new techniques, and I may try this one, as I can definitely see the benefits.

 

[Gibberoni]

its not yeast, its bacteria. i don't worry about removing it. Not even sure how you would. temps above 120 will kill it off.

what are you planning to sour it with?

White Labs 677 Lactobacillus Delbrueckii Yeast is the only locally available lacto yeast I can get, so that was the plan. It states it is used in Berliner's, so I hope it will work!

@gibberoni I think your hop schedule is interesting. Why the 10 min addition? You normally don't want the hops really having any presence in this kind of beer, just a bittering addition to get IBUs at around 5 or so.

In truth, I know I wont use the rest of the hops for any of my other brews. If I am going to order an oz of hops, then I might as well use it all. I was thinking that the late addition would only impart a small flavor. If you all really think it will be too powerful, I can always throw the extra hops in my "clean out the fridge" IPA.

 

[ten80]

I've made some super clean berlinerweiss beers using the sour wort method. Here's my process
1. Mash
2. Sparge, collect runnings and acidify to pH 4.5 with lactic acid
3. Transfer to fermenter, toss in 1 handfull of base malt, purge headspace with CO2, add airlock.
4. Maintain carboy at 110F until pH drops to 3.3-3.5.
5. Boil for 15 minutes, cool, pitch yeast.

Acidification of wort with lactic acid inhibits growth of enteric bacteria, as does purging the carboy headspace with CO2. You could do your sour worting in a purged keg as well. The challenge in souring in a kettle is keeping the headspace free of oxygen. You could probably purge the headspace, then tape the lid shut with electrical tape. The small amount of CO2 generated by the lactobacillus might create enough positive pressure in the kettle to keep oxygen out.

 

[christyle]

I would save the hops to use in later brews. It will only lose a little potency in the freezer. A berliner traditionally has no hop character I believe, just enough bitterness to cut the sweetness. BUT, the idea of homebrewing is to try new things and experiment, so give it a shot if you'd like, but using it as a late addition just so you don't have some sitting around seems a little pointless to me?

 

[flhb]

I figured it would be in the video, i just hadn't watched it here at work. My current method involves only a prolonged (~3 day) mash time. This new method requires an additional short boil, cooling, and transferring into and out of a carboy. I haven't gotten the exact product I was hoping for with my method, so I'm open for new techniques, and I may try this one, as I can definitely see the benefits.

Watch it when you get a chance.

This doesn't require an additional boil necessarily. I guess some people might do one to ensure that there aren't any other bugs in there before letting it sour over a few days, but I find that just limiting the contact with oxygen is sufficient. I mash, pull the grains (BIAB), put in carboy, put carboy in cooler with hot water surrounding it and let it sit for two days, adding hot water to the cooler when needed. Then, I can just pour the whole thing directly into the kettle - no pellicle to remove, no nasty smells.

 

[christyle]

True, the items you're trying to limit are dependent on oxygen, so that makes sense. I need to get a heater of some sort for my sour mashes/worts. I used my HLT/MLT coolers as it kept me warm for a few days, possibly not high enough though. it was down to about 80 by the 3rd day.

 

[Gibberoni]

I would like to thank everyone for their input on this! I mashed last night and am souring in the kettle. I plan on heating the kettle back to 110* every afternoon when I return from work.

I threw some of the leftover grain on top and hopefully it will start to sour and be ready to brew by Saturday/Sunday!

 

[ten80]

Nice! In case you don't have access to a pH meter, you can taste the wort; think of slightly less than lemonade-level sourness. That should be about pH 3.5 (ish). Much below that and the yeast will have a tough time starting.

 

[christyle]

The pH strips on Amazon are cheap, that's what I bought. I have a meter now, but I haven't used it.

 

[Gibberoni]

Nice! In case you don't have access to a pH meter, you can taste the wort; think of slightly less than lemonade-level sourness. That should be about pH 3.5 (ish). Much below that and the yeast will have a tough time starting.

Thanks Ten80, I have a pH meter I got from amazon. Took a reading this morning, it was at 3.75, so I think it will actually be ready tomorrow! Unfortunately I am wayyyy to lazy to wake up early and heat it back up to 110, so they dont do much work during they day. But it dropped from 5-4 yesterday, the 4-3.7 last night, so hopefully 3.7-3.5 tonight!

 

[ten80]

Looks like your mash is now in the "safe(er) zone" below pH 4.5 where it shouldn't get funky/diapery/gawd-awfull. That is my concern with slow souring at below 110.

 

[Gibberoni]

Update for those that are interested, this beer will not stop rocking! It took 2 days for it to take off, but since Tuesday it has blow the S lock off once, and I have cleaned it out and re-sanitized it twice. I cannot believe a beer with an OG of 1.034 is going this hard.

 

[Gibberoni]

Last update, the beer is kegged! This actually came out quite tasty! It still need a bit of time to carbonate more (its been 2 days at 30 psi and 2 days at 20). I will make this again for sure, and will probably add a fruit next time, or at least fruit flavor. I feel like that would complement the tartness wonderfully.

 

[ten80]

I also had a super-vigorous fermentation after a slow start.

Fruit additions are very fun with berlinerweiss because of the multitude of possibilities. I just did a hibiscus berliner that turned out great. I suggest adding the fruit in the primary fermenter right as the fermentation starts to slow (about 2/3 done) so that the flavor is not blown off. Give it a week or two on the fruit, then cold crash and bottle or keg it up.

Interestingly, I did a no-boil berliner with additions of fruit that was not sanitized and the beer turned out SUPER CLEAN with no funk, even after 6 months in bottles! The low pH seems to have a strong effect on inhibiting unwanted bacterial activity.

 

[Gibberoni]

I forgot to even post up a picture, thanks for reviving the thread ten80.