First sour, first post

[monksretreat]

Been snooping on this forum for some time.
Looking to brew a sour tomorrow BIAB.
I've been reading about this for some time and finally have the courage.

Want to get any thoughts on my plan!

Mash at 151 for an hour+:
10 lb Belgian Pilsner
1 lb Belgian Biscuit
1 lb American Munich - Light
1 lb American White Wheat

Mashout at 180 10 min, Dunk Sparge
Cool to 110 and add Good Belly juice,

Make a Brett Starter using Wyeast 5526 (Brett Lambicus)
Keep wort warm, wait 2-3 days, test PH.

Bring to boil, add 1 oz Styrian Goldings 10 min
Cool to 80 and add Brett Starter, Ferment at 70 deg

Rack to secondary pitch French Saison 3711, Ferment 70 deg
Add dry hops, 1 oz Sterling
Wait for some time

Any thoughts?

[Edited for readability -Mod]

 

[DrKnow]

If you are adding Brett anyway, just do the full boil with no hops. Pitch the lacto first and then the Brett after ~48 hours or so. No sense in cleaning your kettle twice. You won’t miss the ibus and I assume you have gear you are willing to expose to bugs (keg,bottles etc). Not much point in dragging the process out. You can brew then package within a month or so...

 

[TwistedGray]

Don't see a problem in your plan

 

[radwizard]

What's your goal with adding the Brett prior to your Saison Yeast?
I agree with Dr. Know. If I'm adding Brett to the fermenter anyways, I probably would not re-boil.

 

[IslandLizard]

I'm with @DrKnow.

The Sacch (3711) pitch is definitely not necessary when Brett is present. Pitch either, but not both.
What do you want to get from the Brett over 3711? Brett is much slower working.

Here's a post by Michael Tonsmeire ("OldSock") on this topic, he who wrote American Sour Beers. There are other good pointers in that thread.

 

[monksretreat]

Thanks for all the help, I was thinking that if I boiled after souring, that I could reduce some risk, maybe keep some of the Yeast in the end too.

Was also going to move it into a carboy w/ electric heat wrap will, then pump it back to kettle and add hops, cool and add Saison, I don't want over complicate, so will hold on the Brett. Thanks for that. Would be nice to keg this up in a month or so.

I have a SS brewbuckets but decided to cleanup the carboy for this one.

 

[couchsending]

How quickly do you want to drink this?

That’s a lot of biscuit malt.

The character you get from Brett can be vastly different if used in primary vs secondary. You will get a much cleaner Brett character if used for primary. More funk will develop if used in secondary. Brett will transform the esters and phenols from the 3711 over time but it will take a while.

I dont understand pitching the Saison yeast last, not sure I’ve ever seen that.

110 is too warm for the lacto in Good Belly... 90-95 is optimum for that strain if you want to kettle sour with it. It will work much faster.

How many IBUs does an ounce of Stryrian get you?

If you’re going pitch Brett in a fermenter I would guess you have dedicated gear for mixed fermentation beers? If that’s the case you might as well add the Lacto to primary, pitch at 100 and let it slowly cool or keep it somewhat warm if you can, then pitch the Saison yeast (I hate 3711 personally, there are so many better Saison yeasts) then add the Brett after krausen has dropped or let the lacto/Saison finish and maybe cool it slightly to get as much yeast to flocc as possible and transfer to secondary with the Brett.

This will be the quickest way to get something sour without kettle souring.

Or you could pitch them all at once let it ferment out, then transfer to secondary and let it sit for a while.

There are so many ways to do but i must say I’ve never seen anyone pitch Sacch last. If you want a quicker sour beer then yes either kettle souring or pitching the lacto warm in primary and giving it a few days to create acidity before pitch Sacch or Sacch/Brett.

 

[monksretreat]

I really like the idea of forgoing the kettle souring and doing it all in one fermentor. Think I'll hold the Brett, but depending on how it goes.

I think 5 IBU's if I do a 15 min boil. Is that going to play well with the Lactos?

Glad you suggested that and a lower temp for the Good Belly.

If I'm careful about sanitation do you think I should still refrain from using the SS Brewbuckets if using them in other beer styles?

What Saison would you suggest?

 

[radwizard]

Adding Brett at packaging might be a good way to go for you as well. Do the kettle sour, with the reboiling, and pitch the Saison yeast. Let that ferment out. It should finish out very low with the 3711. Add Brett to the Keg or bottling bucket and naturally carbonate with sugar.

Just another option. Hop over to the Fermentation sub forum - there is a thread going on there about L Plantarum (goodbelly) temps..

 

[monksretreat]

Adding Brett at packaging might be a good way to go for you as well. Do the kettle sour, with the reboiling, and pitch the Saison yeast. Let that ferment out. It should finish out very low with the 3711. Add Brett to the Keg or bottling bucket and naturally carbonate with sugar.

Just another option. Hop over to the Fermentation sub forum - there is a thread going on there about L Plantarum (goodbelly) temps..

Is reboiling important, right now its in a carboy, brewed last night and added the good belly. Nothing visual happening.

When I transferred into carboy I was careful not to get too much splashing but there was some. I suppose if I need to reboil will have to be careful pumping it back to kettle?

Thanks

 

[TwistedGray]

Is reboiling important

When I transferred into carboy I was careful not to get too much splashing but there was some. I suppose if I need to reboil will have to be careful pumping it back to kettle?

a. You do not want any oxygen to creep into the pre-wort at this stage.

b. Boiling stops the lacto, so yes ... it's important if you are doing a kettle sour. If you were to make the beer then pitch your lacto then it's not important (obviously you wouldn't boil the beer after making it).

 

[couchsending]

Is reboiling important, right now its in a carboy, brewed last night and added the good belly. Nothing visual happening.

When I transferred into carboy I was careful not to get too much splashing but there was some. I suppose if I need to reboil will have to be careful pumping it back to kettle?

Thanks

If you were to reboil you should have just kept it in the kettle... hence kettle sour. Purpose of this is to kill all the lacto so you can use all the same equipment without worrying about infecting your cold side equipment with lacto/Brett. You won’t see any activity, if you pitched just lacto. Are you keeping it warm? Do you have a PH meter? I would wait 36-48 hours, maybe pull a sample to see if it’s sour/tart then pitch the Saison yeast.

 

[monksretreat]

Are you keeping it warm? Do you have a PH meter? I would wait 36-48 hours, maybe pull a sample to see if it’s sour/tart then pitch the Saison yeast.

I just have strips and they are pretty lame. I think Im in the ballpark after 48 hours (held at 90 degrees). Yeast has been added so Im pretty excited to see what happens.

 

[MadHomebrewer]

The point of kettle souring is to keep the wort in the kettle while lacto does its thing. Then boiling the soured wort to kill off the lacto strain so you don’t spread lacto to the rest of your brew equipment.

 

[TwistedGray]

That's part of it, but the other part is that you can get a kettle sour in days; whereas, a traditional sour takes months (some age longer).

 

[RPh_Guy]

That's part of it, but the other part is that you can get a kettle sour in days; whereas, a traditional sour takes months (some age longer).

The length of time it takes has everything to do with the bacteria pitched and nothing to do with the location where souring takes place.

 

[TwistedGray]

The length of time it takes has everything to do with the bacteria pitched and nothing to do with the location where souring takes place.

Just to be clear, you are saying that once your base has completed fermentation you can pitch your souring agent and bottle 48hrs later without issue? Might have to rethink how I'm doing things

 

[RPh_Guy]

Just to be clear, you are saying that once your base has completed fermentation you can pitch your souring agent and bottle 48hrs later without issue? Might have to rethink how I'm doing things

If you don't mind exposing your cold-side equipment to Lacto there's no reason to keep it in the kettle.

Pitch Lacto first and then yeast 1-3 days later, or you can pitch both at the same time if you want.
I'd make sure to hit good cell counts of L. plantarum if co-pitching because I like it very sour.

It's Brett (secondary) +/- Pedio that take months. Lacto is fast. (There is one commercial Pedio strain available that can be used for quick souring as well)

If you're just making Lacto sours I think risk of contaminating your other batches isn't really increased, unless you're somehow using a really hop-tolerant strain of Lacto you cultured on your own.

 

[TwistedGray]

If you don't mind exposing your cold-side equipment to Lacto there's no reason to keep it in the kettle.

Pitch Lacto first and then yeast 1-3 days later, or you can pitch both at the same time if you want.
I'd make sure to hit good cell counts of L. plantarum if co-pitching because I like it very sour.

It's Brett (secondary) +/- Pedio that take months. Lacto is fast. (There is one commercial Pedio strain available that can be used for quick souring as well)

If you're just making Lacto sours I think risk of contaminating your other batches isn't really increased, unless you're somehow using a really hop-tolerant strain of Lacto you cultured on your own.

Thx, wasn't aware. Was always told ferment out, pitch lacto, wait forever...

 

[toddo97]

If you don't mind exposing your cold-side equipment to Lacto there's no reason to keep it in the kettle.

Pitch Lacto first and then yeast 1-3 days later, or you can pitch both at the same time if you want.
I'd make sure to hit good cell counts of L. plantarum if co-pitching because I like it very sour.

It's Brett (secondary) +/- Pedio that take months. Lacto is fast. (There is one commercial Pedio strain available that can be used for quick souring as well)

If you're just making Lacto sours I think risk of contaminating your other batches isn't really increased, unless you're somehow using a really hop-tolerant strain of Lacto you cultured on your own.

Offhand, do you know the name of that strain? I've never heard of a fast souring pedio. I'm guessing it doesn't make the beer sick so you won't have to co-pitch it with Brett?

 

[radwizard]

Offhand, do you know the name of that strain? I've never heard of a fast souring pedio. I'm guessing it doesn't make the beer sick so you won't have to co-pitch it with Brett?

Bootleg Biology Sour Weapon P is one that I am aware of

 

[monksretreat]

Sample taken 2 days ago from fermenter. Wow Im really pleased, pineapplely, bread and sour flavors, but not overly sour. I ended up reducing temp to 65 after 3 days to slow souring and adding Saison on the 7th day

It's still slowly fermenting gravity at 1.010. No hops have been added yet. I am thinking to dry hop with Sterling and maybe Styrian Goldings as well (in orig receipe). Any suggestions? Maybe I'll leave it.