First post, first cider

[zrstonestreet]

Hello all,

I've been actively searching forums for many of the questions that I have and finding varying answers in varying posts.

Fall is a few short months away (swmbo is already preparing decorations...) so I wanted to get a nice cider ready by the end of Oct.

I special ordered 5 gallons of fresh, unpasteurized, unpreserved cider from a local orchard called Soergel's in Wexford, PA. I stopped in at my LHBS to get the supplies for making it. I walked in planning to buy a kit, but the guy behind the counter insisted on piecing it together.. We got:

6 gallon primary
5 gallon glass carboy
air stops
SS mixing spoon
yeast nutrient they make in-house
potassium metabisulphite
Super Kleer equivalent
Lalvin D47 yeast
siphon
2oz Galena hop pellets
2oz Fuggle hop pellets
cheese cloth for dry hopping since I am a fan of IPAs

I know pellets aren't preferred for dry hopping, but it's what they had..

My lovely swmbo doesn't appreciate a high electric bill or being too cold, so keeping temps around the D47's preferred working temp (just discovered this) of <68* is prohibited. She likes to keep it right around the 73-74* mark in our SMALL apartment, which, apparently, would result in D47 giving off fusels. I have read that the end product is much better when the cider is fermented slowly, meaning around 62*.. Small apartment also means no room for a swamp cooler or the like.

My procedure will be:

Pick up fresh cider when ready
Add 4 gallons to primary (freeze 1 gallon to backsweeten)
1/2 tsp. potassium metabisulphite to kill natural yeasts etc.
Add brown sugar to get SG to 1.060-1.065ish
Pitch yeast
Ferment 3-4 weeks
Transfer to secondary glass carboy for clearing
Add Super Kleer equivalent
Let clear and mature for 3 weeks
Dry hop with 1oz of each hop type for 1 week
Transfer to bottling bucket through coffee filter to prevent sediment in bottles
Thaw frozen 1 gallon of cider
Filter enough cider into bottling bucket to backsweeten to ~1.010 SG
Bottle cider
Pasteurize bottles in 180* water via Pappers method
Let sit 3-4 weeks before chilling

So, are there any yeasts (or posts) anyone can recommend for the temperature range?

Is there any other equipment I can definitely benefit from?
I will be stopping back in at my LHBS for a hydrometer/test tube, bottling bucket, bottles, caps, capper

Does this sound like a well-planned procedure or am I missing something?

Any advice or critique?

 

[fofusak]

I've never killed my yeasts, but here's a question I have for you:
If you add a preservative for killing wild yeasts, isn't it likely that it will kill your yeast when you pitch?

Maybe it's just ignorance from my part, but MAYBE this question may save you from a failed fermentation

I was under the impression that you needed to pasteurize (or cold pasteurize with UV) for the wild yeasts.

Another observation I have: I'd keep some part unhopped just to see a baseline so you can improve your next batch. This way you'll be able to see if there are flavors you do, or don't like from the hops, if it was too much or you'd like more and so on.

Cheers

 

[Yooper]

It all looks pretty good to me, except for the "filtering finished cider through a coffee filter before bottling" part. That will oxidize and ruin the cider. You want to always siphon very carefully, without any splashing or allowing oxygen contact. Using sulfites (campden) as part of the racking process will help since it binds to the cider so oxygen can't (and it dissipates relatively quickly) but still you want to avoid any possible risk of oxygen uptake whenever you can.

By carefully siphoning to the bottling bucket, and using some campden, you can avoid sediment in the bottle beyond a tiny amount. Whenever you bottle carbonate, you will get a bit just because of the process.

Using campden to kill wild yeast and/or bacteria is a wise move when mixing the must.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=508303 Is a little write up of beginning cider making I did a while back. You may have already seen it, but if not, you may find it somewhat helpful.

 

[fofusak]

I see the thing about campden tablets that Yooper said.
Very interesting... if this thing kills wild yeast but not our good yeast, why don't we pitch it along with the yeast in beer too? to prevent infections?

 

[zrstonestreet]

I've never killed my yeasts, but here's a question I have for you:
If you add a preservative for killing wild yeasts, isn't it likely that it will kill your yeast when you pitch?

Maybe it's just ignorance from my part, but MAYBE this question may save you from a failed fermentation

I was under the impression that you needed to pasteurize (or cold pasteurize with UV) for the wild yeasts.

Another observation I have: I'd keep some part unhopped just to see a baseline so you can improve your next batch. This way you'll be able to see if there are flavors you do, or don't like from the hops, if it was too much or you'd like more and so on.

I was actually thinking about doing this. Keeping 3 gallons of regular, and 2 gallons of hopped for exactly the reasons you mentioned. Looks like I'll be getting a couple smaller secondary glass carboys haha

Cheers

It all looks pretty good to me, except for the "filtering finished cider through a coffee filter before bottling" part. That will oxidize and ruin the cider. You want to always siphon very carefully, without any splashing or allowing oxygen contact. Using sulfites (campden) as part of the racking process will help since it binds to the cider so oxygen can't (and it dissipates relatively quickly) but still you want to avoid any possible risk of oxygen uptake whenever you can.

By carefully siphoning to the bottling bucket, and using some campden, you can avoid sediment in the bottle beyond a tiny amount. Whenever you bottle carbonate, you will get a bit just because of the process.

Using campden to kill wild yeast and/or bacteria is a wise move when mixing the must.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=508303 Is a little write up of beginning cider making I did a while back. You may have already seen it, but if not, you may find it somewhat helpful.

I did read that post, and was hoping you would comment here.. That is actually where I learned about using the sulfites early in the process to kill the wild yeasts and bacteria. I couldn't believe how much info about the process and ingredients I was unaware of and you did a great job explaining it, so thank you!

I was planning to zip-tie the coffee filter around the end of the hose, and keep the hose below the top of the liquid to prevent aerating, while collecting particles. Sounds like I'm worrying about nothing though since I can just use the campden.

Would you use sulfites every time you rack from primary to secondary, and from secondary to bottling bucket? Can you over-use the campden?

What sediment is created during bottle carbonating? From my understanding, the yeast that is still active will convert the new glucose in the backsweetening cider into ethanol and CO2, hence carbonating in the bottle.. But is it the dead yeast that settles to the bottom after glucolysis?

Do you think having a post bottled SG of 1.010 with active yeast would make bottle bombs? If so, checking a bottle every day until the "right" carbonation, then stovetop pasteurizing would be necessary, I believe.

 

[bernardsmith]

The thing about Campden tabs (K-meta) is that you add it about 24 hours before you pitch your yeast. That allows the SO2 to kill any volunteer yeast and bacteria AND evaporate off before you pitch your yeast. Bottom line: it CAN kill the "good yeast" but the relative small amount of K-meta you add coupled with the amount of time you allow the SO2 to dissipate and the relatively enormous size of the preferred yeast colony you will pitch means that you don't need to worry about your "good yeast".

Why brewers don't use K-meta I am not sure except that you kill bacteria and yeast with heat (wine makers tend to avoid heat - we don't "brew" anything but coffee and tea - ) and pitch your yeast before any free floating bacteria and yeast have a chance to gain a toe -hold.

 

[Yooper]

Wine and ale yeast are amazingly tolerant of sulfites- that's why winemakers use them- but it's definitely possible to oversulfite. If you don't have an SO2 meter, a lot of winemakers guestimate a likely 50 ppm as 1 crushed campden tablet per gallon at every other racking. It may be a bit more, or a bit less (actual amount is pH dependent), but it works as an estimate.

Sediment is created from the reproduction of yeast that happens for bottle conditioning. Beers have that too- bottle conditioning makes a mini-fermentation in the bottle to produce the c02, so there will always be a bit of sediment in bottle carbonated drinks (even soda).

An SG of 1.010 may or may not make bottle bombs- as it depends on whether the yeast strain is finished or near finished. If you use a wine yeast, then yes you'd likely get bottle bombs. With some ale yeast strains, you might not. You might just get gushers. If you want a sweet sparkling cider, bottle pasteurizing (or kegging) would be necessary. You can easily make a dry sparkling cider, or a sweet still cider, but a sweet sparking cider means that the active yeast would need to be handled to avoid bottle bombs.

 

[Drewed]

I would ask the orchard if I could up my order to 6 or 7 gallons. That way you can ferment 5.5-6 gallons and rack over a full 5.
I'm not a huge fan of fermented brown sugar, it can taste like molasses ( as that is what it is.) A little is nice, but if you need to add a lot to bump the SG, I would suggest using dextrose ( corn sugar - your LHBS will have it).
D47 wouldn't be my choice for yeast. Your temperature range does make it hard. Does your LHBS sell White Labs yeast? you coudl try WLP568 Belgian Style Saison Ale Yeast Blend. Wyeast 4766 cider says it can go to 75. I have never tried it, and I didn't like their mead yeast.
After a little goggle session, it looks like Saison style yeast will be your best bet, and should blend well with your hops.

I don't campden my must, but my orchard UVs all of their cider and I make yeast starters so I don't worry about any wild yeast that my be in there.

180 is way over kill for pasteurization as well. I put the bottle in brew kettle inserting a empty bottle in the middle, fill the kettle with hot tap water to the level of the cider, and cold water in the empty bottle. I then place my temp probe in the empty bottle and heat until the probe reads 140. I then kill the heat and set a timer for 10 min. After 10 min I remove the bottles to a towel lined sink (in case on decides to fail during the cool down ) and repeat the process for the next batch.

Are you wanting to bottle carbonate the cider, or have it still? There are other ways to kill off the yeast if you are going for a still cider.

 

[ericbw]

Are you going for still cider or carbonated? If you want carbonated, you'll need to bottle and then let it sit for a few days to weeks to carbonate, then pasteurize.

Also, I know everyone has an opinion... Yes, saison yeasts can handle higher temperatures, but only because you expect them to give you strong aromas. In other styles, those would be considered off flavors. If you like saison or Belgian styles, I would go for it (I might do a Belgian farmhouse style cider this year myself). But the difference between D47 or any other wine yeast and a saison yeast is huge.

Any yeast can ferment at higher temps - I would guess over 100 degrees, maybe as high as 120. But that doesn't mean that you'll like the result.

 

[HopGobbler]

Soergels is great, I live right by there. Definitely will have to hit them up for apple juice in the future. I got cherry cider from Golden Apple on Route 8 that I'm making into a hard cider currently. What brew shop do you go to?

 

[zrstonestreet]

I would ask the orchard if I could up my order to 6 or 7 gallons. That way you can ferment 5.5-6 gallons and rack over a full 5.
I'm not a huge fan of fermented brown sugar, it can taste like molasses ( as that is what it is.) A little is nice, but if you need to add a lot to bump the SG, I would suggest using dextrose ( corn sugar - your LHBS will have it).
D47 wouldn't be my choice for yeast. Your temperature range does make it hard. Does your LHBS sell White Labs yeast? you coudl try WLP568 Belgian Style Saison Ale Yeast Blend. Wyeast 4766 cider says it can go to 75. I have never tried it, and I didn't like their mead yeast.
After a little goggle session, it looks like Saison style yeast will be your best bet, and should blend well with your hops.

I don't campden my must, but my orchard UVs all of their cider and I make yeast starters so I don't worry about any wild yeast that my be in there.

180 is way over kill for pasteurization as well. I put the bottle in brew kettle inserting a empty bottle in the middle, fill the kettle with hot tap water to the level of the cider, and cold water in the empty bottle. I then place my temp probe in the empty bottle and heat until the probe reads 140. I then kill the heat and set a timer for 10 min. After 10 min I remove the bottles to a towel lined sink (in case on decides to fail during the cool down ) and repeat the process for the next batch.

Are you wanting to bottle carbonate the cider, or have it still? There are other ways to kill off the yeast if you are going for a still cider.

Thanks for the info. I'll pick up the corn sugar when I get everything else. I decided to go to the LHBS before I really knew anything about the making cider, so I ended up with the D47 the guy gave me. I'll check out the yeasts you mentioned.

Do you use a metal canning-frame to hold the bottles off the bottom of the pot? I like the method you use though. Seems more controlled.

The old lady wants sparkling cider, so I guess I'll be bottle carbing it. That's why I was considering back sweetening and pasteurizing.

Soergels is great, I live right by there. Definitely will have to hit them up for apple juice in the future. I got cherry cider from Golden Apple on Route 8 that I'm making into a hard cider currently. What brew shop do you go to?

I live in Robinson and work downtown, so I stop by South Hills Brewing in Greentree on my way home.

Wine and ale yeast are amazingly tolerant of sulfites- that's why winemakers use them- but it's definitely possible to oversulfite. If you don't have an SO2 meter, a lot of winemakers guestimate a likely 50 ppm as 1 crushed campden tablet per gallon at every other racking. It may be a bit more, or a bit less (actual amount is pH dependent), but it works as an estimate.

Sediment is created from the reproduction of yeast that happens for bottle conditioning. Beers have that too- bottle conditioning makes a mini-fermentation in the bottle to produce the c02, so there will always be a bit of sediment in bottle carbonated drinks (even soda).

An SG of 1.010 may or may not make bottle bombs- as it depends on whether the yeast strain is finished or near finished. If you use a wine yeast, then yes you'd likely get bottle bombs. With some ale yeast strains, you might not. You might just get gushers. If you want a sweet sparkling cider, bottle pasteurizing (or kegging) would be necessary. You can easily make a dry sparkling cider, or a sweet still cider, but a sweet sparking cider means that the active yeast would need to be handled to avoid bottle bombs.

I don't want super dry cider, so I am considering an ale yeast that will bring my FG down to a 1.004 or thereabouts. Pretty much just enough yeast to bottle carbonate the cider I backsweeten it with before pasteurizing. Sweet, sparkling, pasteurized cider for a first try sounds like I'm playing with fire, but hey... gotta test the waters sometime haha

 

[Drewed]

....

Do you use a metal canning-frame to hold the bottles off the bottom of the pot? I like the method you use though. Seems more controlled....

I use a folded up 'flour sack' dish towel.

keep the lid on the pan while you do heat it, just in-case you have a bottle not up to the task. I also hold it between me and the bottle when transferring them to the sink, but I think I'm being paranoid there.

 

[ericbw]

I use a folded up 'flour sack' dish towel.



keep the lid on the pan while you do heat it, just in-case you have a bottle not up to the task. I also hold it between me and the bottle when transferring them to the sink, but I think I'm being paranoid there.

Nope, not paranoid! A hot bottle touching anything cold can also break.

I use a towel or canning rack, too.

 

[ericbw]

Thanks for the info. I'll pick up the corn sugar when I get everything else. I decided to go to the LHBS before I really knew anything about the making cider, so I ended up with the D47 the guy gave me. I'll check out the yeasts you mentioned.



Do you use a metal canning-frame to hold the bottles off the bottom of the pot? I like the method you use though. Seems more controlled.



The old lady wants sparkling cider, so I guess I'll be bottle carbing it. That's why I was considering back sweetening and pasteurizing.











I live in Robinson and work downtown, so I stop by South Hills Brewing in Greentree on my way home.







I don't want super dry cider, so I am considering an ale yeast that will bring my FG down to a 1.004 or thereabouts. Pretty much just enough yeast to bottle carbonate the cider I backsweeten it with before pasteurizing. Sweet, sparkling, pasteurized cider for a first try sounds like I'm playing with fire, but hey... gotta test the waters sometime haha

Just remember that even ale yeast can ferment to 1.000 or lower. There are mostly simple sugars in juice as well. If yeast stops at 1.004 it's because there is no more simple sugar, not because there is no more yeast.

If you add more juice, it can ferment that dry, too. So backsweeten, let it carb, then pasteurize immediately.

Do you know about using 1 plastic bottle as a gauge for carbonation?

 

[madscientist451]

Fall is a few short months away (swmbo is already preparing decorations...) so I wanted to get a nice cider ready by the end of Oct.

I special ordered 5 gallons of fresh, unpasteurized, unpreserved cider from a local orchard called Soergel's in Wexford, PA.

If you are just starting out, get a gallon of fresh cider, ferment it out in a jug and get some experience. After a few tries, move up to 3 gallons. I wouldn't add any hops until you can make a base cider that you really like. Start saving some wine bottles/jugs to siphon your cider into when its done.
You can make a cheapo "chamber" for fermenting with a cardboard box and 1" insulation board. Gorrila glue brand duct tape works great for sealing the corners/seams. Use frozen water bottles and you'll be able to get 10 degrees below room temperature with no problem, which in your case would be about 62F. I use this kind of setup for years until I got a chest freezer with temp control.
For yeast I like Brewer's Cider House select:
http://www.homebrewing.org/Cider-House-Select-Cider-Yeast-Sachet_p_5043.html
I've tried all kinds of different yeasts and the above is my "go-to " yeast that consistently makes a good cider. Its also a workhorse and very hard to kill, you can save the yeast cake and re-pitch it 5-6 times without any issues.
Most local orchards that make cider change the blend of apples they use as the season progresses. The early season cider is completely different than the last cider run if the season. I've found that the late season blends (November/December in PA) make the best hard cider, but I've made decent mid season ciders also.
I looked at Soergel's website and it says they press cider year round, so they are using storage apples from last season, at least until this years apples start getting ripe.
Check out other orchards in your area as the season rolls along and see what they have to offer; even in the same area, the flavor of cider will be much different from different orchards.

 

[zrstonestreet]

Just remember that even ale yeast can ferment to 1.000 or lower. There are mostly simple sugars in juice as well. If yeast stops at 1.004 it's because there is no more simple sugar, not because there is no more yeast.

If you add more juice, it can ferment that dry, too. So backsweeten, let it carb, then pasteurize immediately.

Do you know about using 1 plastic bottle as a gauge for carbonation?

Haven't heard of the procedure for using 1 plastic bottle as a gauge for carbonation. I was just going to open 1 glass one to drink each day until the carbonation is where I want it, and pasteurize it then.

If you are just starting out, get a gallon of fresh cider, ferment it out in a jug and get some experience. After a few tries, move up to 3 gallons. I wouldn't add any hops until you can make a base cider that you really like. Start saving some wine bottles/jugs to siphon your cider into when its done.
You can make a cheapo "chamber" for fermenting with a cardboard box and 1" insulation board. Gorrila glue brand duct tape works great for sealing the corners/seams. Use frozen water bottles and you'll be able to get 10 degrees below room temperature with no problem, which in your case would be about 62F. I use this kind of setup for years until I got a chest freezer with temp control.
For yeast I like Brewer's Cider House select:
http://www.homebrewing.org/Cider-House-Select-Cider-Yeast-Sachet_p_5043.html
I've tried all kinds of different yeasts and the above is my "go-to " yeast that consistently makes a good cider. Its also a workhorse and very hard to kill, you can save the yeast cake and re-pitch it 5-6 times without any issues.
Most local orchards that make cider change the blend of apples they use as the season progresses. The early season cider is completely different than the last cider run if the season. I've found that the late season blends (November/December in PA) make the best hard cider, but I've made decent mid season ciders also.
I looked at Soergel's website and it says they press cider year round, so they are using storage apples from last season, at least until this years apples start getting ripe.
Check out other orchards in your area as the season rolls along and see what they have to offer; even in the same area, the flavor of cider will be much different from different orchards.

I picked up the 5 gallons I had previously ordered, last night. If I ruin it to a point that it's undrinkable, I'm out $40 and some of my time. But I'll know what not to do next time, and I'll start again with smaller batches.

The cheapo chamber would work, but our apartment is really small lol like 600 sq ft for two adults and her 2 (loved more than me) cats. I've convinced her to let me turn the thermostat down to 67 until it's done fermenting. She's laying out blankets for the cats to curl up in if they get cold.......

I'll try this first 5 gallon batch and age it until the end of October, get a few more 1 gallon batches going to test different ingredient approaches, and hopefully have a good idea what to do next year for fall.

 

[ericbw]

When you bottle, fill one plastic bottle (soda or something carbonated) with your cider. Fill the rest in glass. Every day (every!) squeeze the bottle. It will get harder as the carbonation increases. Your glass bottles are doing the same.

When it's too hard to squeeze ("rock hard"), then pasteurize. I would probably chill for 1-3 days and THEN pasteurize. But do it right when the bottle is hard.

Don't pasteurize the plastic, just the glass. Chill the plastic bottle and drink it soon.

 

[ericbw]

Ways to ruin your $40 investment: oxidation. Bottle bombs. Other than that, it's hard to make it undrinkable.

 

[D7Brewing]

I also live in a small apartment. I make 3 gallon batches because a 3 gallon carboy will fit in an average cooler with an air lock attached. Once or twice a day I rotate large cooler ice bricks . Keeps the cooler right around 64. Remember, that is the temp in the cooler. The temp inside the carboy will be a few degrees higher being that the process of fermentation gives off heat.