First lager, with S-23... advice needed

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DVCNick

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Things on my mind:

Fermentation and aging:
I can control temps exactly, and have the ability to ferment under pressure if needed.
I don't mind waiting some to drink it, but what I don't want is to have my fermentation chamber tied up at a moderate temp for two months. So it seems to me there are a couple paths after some research here:

-Ferment in a regular carboy at ~55F for about 2-3 weeks, let it come up to ~68 for 2-3 days for a dialectal rest.... at that point, can I keg it and "lager" it at regular kegerator temps (mid 30's)? Or is that too cold? I've also heard that you can keg it here, hit it it with gelatin, force carb and drink it in about a week like you would with an ale. Thoughts on that?

-Fermentasauraus at 15psi, at ale temps of 68-70. I read that it will be done in a week, at which point you can keg it and lager it normally (at what temp?) OR hit it with gelatin, force carb the rest of the way, and drink it fast.

Any thoughts or input would be good. Again, I'm trying to avoid tying up the ferm chamber for weeks on end at ~55 degrees.
 
Ferment in a regular carboy at ~55F for about 2-3 weeks, let it come up to ~68 for 2-3 days for a dialectal rest.... at that point, can I keg it and "lager" it at regular kegerator temps (mid 30's)? Or is that too cold? I've also heard that you can keg it here, hit it it with gelatin, force carb and drink it in about a week like you would with an ale. Thoughts on that?

This is what I do except I ferment at 62, then D-Rest as 68, keg, carb and lager in the keg. Never had an issue and they have all been delicious!
 
Thanks sir... have you ever tried gelatin in place of extended lagering to see if there was any difference?
 
Gelatin is great. I wouldn't do it in the keg though - too much sludge IMO. If anyone has some Gel-in-keg advise, I'm sure they'll chime in.

My method is to rack to secondary after a couple weeks and D-rest, lager for a month, gelatin, then keg.
 
The one time I've used gelatin it was in the keg with a hoppy ale, and worked just as advertized... a slug of trub right out of gate and then immediately very clear.... It wasn't an issue that time, but maybe I got lucky?
 
Thanks sir... have you ever tried gelatin in place of extended lagering to see if there was any difference?

I use gelatin in all my beers...I used to do in the keg but now I throw it in the fermenter about 48 hours before kegging.
 
If you don't want to use gelatin...try BrewTan B combined with whirlfloc...it gives you crystal clear wort after chilling...and then once done fermenting and cold crashed, you will have clear beer in the keg within a week or two, unless using a low flocc yeast...then it may take longer BrewTan B is a tannic acid used to extend shelf life, not many places sell it, but Williams Brewing online has it. I use a gram in the mash, then add .75 grams (dissolved) at 15 minutes left in boil...then wait 5 minutes before adding whirlfloc or Irish moss. It really is magic. You can see in the picture I attached...that's 6 gallons of crystal clear Helles post chilling, so clear you can barely see the beer and just see the trub on bottom.
 

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I don't mind using gelatin... that is interesting though. I have heard of BrewTan B but never tried it.
 
Any thoughts or input would be good. Again, I'm trying to avoid tying up the ferm chamber for weeks on end at ~55 degrees.

Sounds like you're in the perfect situation to try a more traditional approach. Chill wort to cooler than ferment temperatures. Pitch yeast and allow to rise to ferment temperature (typically about 10C/50F for my lagers). Hold until about 90% complete (typically about a week for me if the pitch was big enough). Drop the temperature about 2C/4F per day to lagering temperatures. Lager yeasts will slowly continue working at lagering temperatures and slowly clean up when they're done. Lagering takes longer this way (at least a month) but time in the warmer ferment chamber is quite short and the results are more 'traditional' - it tastes different than warm fermented or lagers given a warm d-rest. Warm fermented still tastes good, but different and less lager-y. IME, if enough yeast is pitched and pitch temp<ferment temp and ferment temperatures are controlled, d-rests aren't needed. YMMV and yeast strains might affect it, but I've used S-23 a few times with no issue.
 
Thanks all... one last question. Is one dry packet direct pitched enough for 5 gallons, or do I need a big starter? Everyone seems to be saying you should be using at least twice as much yeast as you do for ales.
 
I use 2 packs with 5 gallon batches. Two packs in 5 gallons might get the job done quicker, spending less time in the growth phase.
 
Well it is what it is now... I pitched this morning, direct with one pack into 60 degree wort.
I also pressurized with bottle gas up to 10psi (wasn't sure if this would be beneficial or not but figured it likely wouldn't hurt)
Spunding valve set to 15psi is attached.
It is currently free-rising to a set temp of 67.
 
Took sample today.... it's at 1.010.5ish right where the calculators predict. It is cold crashing now.
The pressure drifted slightly high and was at about 17psi through most of the fermentation according to the gauge on my spunding valve. I left the temp set at 67 throughout.

Sample tasted good. Once it is cold tomorrow I'll gelatin in the fermenter for a couple days, then put it in the serving keg for a little conditioning and finish carbing up which I believe will be quick.
Assuming it tastes good by the 28th I think this one is destined for a cookout with some friends that weekend.

I just need to get another yeast pack and will have enough stuff to do this recipe again... will probably try one of the other methods/schedules. Seems to be a lot more choices than with an ale!
 
Thanks all... one last question. Is one dry packet direct pitched enough for 5 gallons, or do I need a big starter? Everyone seems to be saying you should be using at least twice as much yeast as you do for ales.

One pack will most likely work, but would underpitched. Lagers need a minimum of 1.5 million cells per mL per degree Plato. 5 gallons of a 1.048 lager would need 338 billion cells, one 11 gram pack supplies (per Brewer's Friend yeast calculator) 110 billion cells, so you would need 34 grams or just over 3 packs. Just 3 would be close enough though. Obviously, the higher the gravity, the more you would need. Pitching the right yeast count reduces lag times for fermentation start, eliminates yeast stress that can cause esters, and helps the beer ferment fully. Yeast pitch calculators are an important tool for brewing.
 
Sounds like you're in the perfect situation to try a more traditional approach. Chill wort to cooler than ferment temperatures. Pitch yeast and allow to rise to ferment temperature (typically about 10C/50F for my lagers). Hold until about 90% complete (typically about a week for me if the pitch was big enough). Drop the temperature about 2C/4F per day to lagering temperatures. Lager yeasts will slowly continue working at lagering temperatures and slowly clean up when they're done. Lagering takes longer this way (at least a month) but time in the warmer ferment chamber is quite short and the results are more 'traditional' - it tastes different than warm fermented or lagers given a warm d-rest. Warm fermented still tastes good, but different and less lager-y. IME, if enough yeast is pitched and pitch temp<ferment temp and ferment temperatures are controlled, d-rests aren't needed. YMMV and yeast strains might affect it, but I've used S-23 a few times with no issue.

Gnomebrewer you seem to know much about laagering - perhaps you can help me?.

I am brewing an Octoberfest and the fermentation seems to be stuck at1017. I was hoping to get down to 1011. I am using a tilt to monitor. Equipment I am using is Grainfather Conical on a Glycol Chiller. Started at 52 degrees and good activity for 8 days from OG 1058 to 1017. Started raising the temp 2 degrees a day but still nothing. I swirled the fermenter a couple of times hoping to activate the yeast in suspension but still nothing. Do you have any suggestions or is this normal? This is my first time laagering. Thank You!
 
Hello Everyone

I am brewing an Octoberfest and the fermentation seems to be stuck at 1017. I was hoping to get down to 1011. I am using a tilt to monitor. Equipment I am using is Grainfather Conical on a Glycol Chiller. Started at 52 degrees and good activity for 8 days from OG 1058 to 1017. Started raising the temp 2 degrees a day but still nothing. I swirled the fermenter a couple of times hoping to activate the yeast in suspension but still nothing. Does anyone have any suggestions or is this normal? This is my first time laagering. Also - I have a yeast dump valve I usually dump the yeast on ales after about two weeks to make sure I don't have a yeast bite. This works well. Thank You!
 
I am brewing an Octoberfest and the fermentation seems to be stuck at 1017.

What was your grist? A large portion of munich malt (and to a lesser extent vienna malt) leads to a less fermentable wort. Unfortunately, calculators such as beersmith don't account for this, so will often predict a much lower FG. Also, are you degassing your sample before using the hydrometer? Cool ferment lagers have more dissolved CO2 than warmer ales, which causes bubbles to lift up the hydrometer.
 
Things on my mind:

Fermentation and aging:
I can control temps exactly, and have the ability to ferment under pressure if needed.
I don't mind waiting some to drink it, but what I don't want is to have my fermentation chamber tied up at a moderate temp for two months. So it seems to me there are a couple paths after some research here:

-Ferment in a regular carboy at ~55F for about 2-3 weeks, let it come up to ~68 for 2-3 days for a dialectal rest.... at that point, can I keg it and "lager" it at regular kegerator temps (mid 30's)? Or is that too cold? I've also heard that you can keg it here, hit it it with gelatin, force carb and drink it in about a week like you would with an ale. Thoughts on that?

-Fermentasauraus at 15psi, at ale temps of 68-70. I read that it will be done in a week, at which point you can keg it and lager it normally (at what temp?) OR hit it with gelatin, force carb the rest of the way, and drink it fast.

Any thoughts or input would be good. Again, I'm trying to avoid tying up the ferm chamber for weeks on end at ~55 degrees.
Check out the lager method on the Brulosophy web site. I've been brewing lagers for three years now with consistent successful results using this method.
 
What was your grist? A large portion of munich malt (and to a lesser extent vienna malt) leads to a less fermentable wort. Unfortunately, calculators such as beersmith don't account for this, so will often predict a much lower FG. Also, are you degassing your sample before using the hydrometer? Cool ferment lagers have more dissolved CO2 than warmer ales, which causes bubbles to lift up the hydrometer.
[/QUOTE

Most Munich malt and I throw in a lb. of cara pils for head retention. I use a tilt hydrometer so I don't have to open the fermenter. Also I gradually brought the temperature up to 65 so I am at the end of the d rest. I guess I will dump the yeast in a day tor two and then cold crash and start the laagering process. Just not sure how long to laager leaving the hydrometer in place for the whole process. I will remove it when I keg the beer.
 
Took a sample today. Mine on the right, Oskar Blues "Little Yella Pils" on the left (it isn't supposed to be a clone or anything).
The commercial one is definitely more clear especially when cold, but I think it is closer than this pic indicates. It is still very young of course... I imagine it will clear better with more time in the keg.

The commercial one also has a lot more bitterness than mine. My recipe was originally made with (I think) 3% Tettnager hops, and my bag says 5%, so I adjusted the weights down by like 40%. Maybe that was a bit much.

Given I'm not a huge bitter pilsner fan, I actually don't mind it. We'll see how it changes over the next couple weeks. It might be almost gone a week from now though.
 
Yep - over time it will clear however to get it crystal clear in a couple of days add gelatin - I use a teaspoon for 5 gallons.
 
I did add gelatin to the fermenter before racking, but I wonder if it just kind of fell down in the bottom of the cone and didn't do much.
 
Did you boil it and let it cool a bit prior to pitching into your keg? Also you should swirl the keg to mix it in.
 
It is more clear than the picture would indicate. There is some condensation there. Once moderately warm, there is just a little haze; it isn't brilliantly clear like the commercial example, but it has only been in the keg about four days or so.
 
Make sure you mix it up by swirl or a little shake. The gelatin grabs the yeast in suspension and knocks it down. The spent yeast with the gelatin will be at the bottom of your corny kegs. I am going to pitch my gelatin in the fermenter a couple of days before kegging so I minimize the sludge on the bottom of the corny
 
It was in the fermenter, so likely little or none made it to the keg.
 
I would do it again and put it in the keg. That's how I have been doing to for years. Make sure you shake the keg so it mixes good. You will have clear beer in two to three days
 
Curious Nick - you mention earlier you can pressure ferment. Are you using he Grainfather system? I made that investment and best thing I have done controlling everything.
 
Gelatin won't work as well if the beer's not already cold - it can't knock out chill haze if chill haze hasn't formed yet.
 
I have an original Fermentasaurus; it was in that. It was cold crashed for a couple days prior to gelatin being added, and it has been cold ever since.
I'm thinking about adding another dose to the keg, but, probably I'll just let it ride.

If I do this recipe again I'll probably up my hopping rate slightly, closer to the original.
 
If you can't get the FG down with the lager yeast, I've had sucess drying it out further by adding some (half teaspoon or so) amylase enzyme and a packet of US05 dry ale yeast to your carboy. That will take it down a few more points if you aren't a purist regarding the use of ale yeast to finish out your lager. Make sure to raise the carboy ferment temperature up to the ale range during this.

Some of the big beers (barleywine and big Dopplebocks, triplebocks) use Champagne yeast added near the end of fermentation to finish off those few points after the main ale or lager yeast has finished. Also, bringing it up to a D-rest about 66F and then hold for about 2 weeks will help clean up and dry out the batch.
 
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