First Lager Slightly Diacetyl

[DannyBoy270]

So I brewed my first lager (a Marzen) and took a sample today. Fermentation appears to be complete (I hit my FG) and in tasting i think I'm picking up a slight buttery aroma & taste. Im going to bottle condition and lager in the bottles after they've had time to carb up, but my question is if I carbonate at a warmer temp for the 1st day or so, say 65 degrees, can i expect the yeast to clean up any diaceytl at all?

 

[Maxkling]

Did you do a diaceytl rest?

 

[DannyBoy270]

Did you do a diaceytl rest?

Yes, I fermented on a schedule similar to this

 

[Kickass]

I’m not sure about an answer to your question but for future batches, I think your D rest might be more effective getting up to 65-68.

What’s your normal carbonation temp?

 

[DannyBoy270]

I’m not sure about an answer to your question but for future batches, I think your D rest might be more effective getting up to 65-68.

What’s your normal carbonation temp?

I typically just try to carbonate at whatever the yeasts optimal temp range is listed on the package. So for Ales typically 68-72, but for this one I'd planned to keep it at 53-59 as thats what was listed on the package. Strain is Saflager W-34/70 btw.

 

[dmtaylor]

Condition warm (room temperature) until fully carbonated. Diacetyl can be cleaned up in the bottles in a week or two, maybe 3 weeks maximum, but the yeast needs to stay active to eat it.

 

[hottpeper13]

It's weird that you got this with 34/70, I ferment it at 52* for 7 days then go up to 59* for 14 days then keg, never any diacetyl.

 

[RePete]

I am fairly new to lagers, and have been using 34/70 for the last couple batches. I am getting a taste I would call a bubblegum flavor. It has seemed to clear up some in the keg, which has been cold in the fridge. Maybe it's diacetyl? I thought it must be a characteristic of the yeast. This last batch I had fermented closer to 50*, then left it out in the basement for a few days. Probably over 70* Then put in the keg and cold crashed. The bubblegum taste was very pronounced at first. It's starting to tone down now 3 weeks in.

 

[hottpeper13]

Not a clue on the bubblegum.

 

[jdauria]

I am fairly new to lagers, and have been using 34/70 for the last couple batches. I am getting a taste I would call a bubblegum flavor.

Diacetyl is usually butter, buttered popcorn flavor and aroma. Bubblegum is something you can get in wheat beers as an ester and phenol from yeast. So getting it in a lager with 34/70 is strange. Are you pitching enough yeast? Lagers need a lot more yeast than ales, so one pack of dry yeast is not enough. If you are underpitching, maybe it's some strange off-flavor from stressed yeast.

 

[RePete]

Diacetyl is usually butter, buttered popcorn flavor and aroma. Bubblegum is something you can get in wheat beers as an ester and phenol from yeast. So getting it in a lager with 34/70 is strange. Are you pitching enough yeast? Lagers need a lot more yeast than ales, so one pack of dry yeast is not enough. If you are underpitching, maybe it's some strange off-flavor from stressed yeast.

I think that must be it. I only pitched 1 pkg on the first 2 batches. On this latest batch I pitched 2, so hopefully it will be better. I did read lately that Fermentis recommends 1 pkg for ale, and 2 for lager, which is why I made the change. Thanks.

 

[jdauria]

I think that must be it. I only pitched 1 pkg on the first 2 batches. On this latest batch I pitched 2, so hopefully it will be better. I did read lately that Fermentis recommends 1 pkg for ale, and 2 for lager, which is why I made the change. Thanks.

You're welcome! Always good to use a yeast calculator like Yeast Pitch Rate and Starter Calculator - Brewer's Friend Just had a discussion yesterday with someone, that say a 1.048 OG lager needs something like 338 billion yeast cells, and one pack of dry yeast only supplies around 115 billion cells, so you need almost 3 packs. Obviously the higher the OG, the more you need. Beers will still ferment with 1 or 2 packs, but will be slower to take off and may not ferment fully.

 

[DannyBoy270]

It's weird that you got this with 34/70, I ferment it at 52* for 7 days then go up to 59* for 14 days then keg, never any diacetyl.

In hindsight it was definitely my fault lol I got in a rush and pretty sure it's because I didn't chill the wort all the way down to fermentation temp. I think I pitched around 70-75* and then put the fermenter in my chamber hoping it would cool the rest of the way during the lag phase. Almost 100% sure thats where it came from. I'm just glad it's faint and not a complete butter bomb

Going to carbonate warmer at room temp as @dmtaylor suggested and I'm hopeful that will clear it up. Thanks all for the input!

 

[DannyBoy270]

I am fairly new to lagers, and have been using 34/70 for the last couple batches. I am getting a taste I would call a bubblegum flavor. It has seemed to clear up some in the keg, which has been cold in the fridge. Maybe it's diacetyl? I thought it must be a characteristic of the yeast. This last batch I had fermented closer to 50*, then left it out in the basement for a few days. Probably over 70* Then put in the keg and cold crashed. The bubblegum taste was very pronounced at first. It's starting to tone down now 3 weeks in.

As someone else said bubblegum is typically associated with esters. If pitching more yeast doesn't solve it I'd say make sure your fermentation temps aren't getting too high & ensure you're getting enough oxygen in your wort. Supposedly its unnecessary with dry yeast, but I always aerate and add yeast nutrient to the boil anyway; figure its cheap insurance.

 

[Elric]

In hindsight it was definitely my fault lol I got in a rush and pretty sure it's because I didn't chill the wort all the way down to fermentation temp. I think I pitched around 70-75* and then put the fermenter in my chamber hoping it would cool the rest of the way during the lag phase. Almost 100% sure thats where it came from. I'm just glad it's faint and not a complete butter bomb

Going to carbonate warmer at room temp as @dmtaylor suggested and I'm hopeful that will clear it up. Thanks all for the input!

given you were using 34/70 I doubt your unwanted flavors Came from pitching too warm. 34/70 is a rockstar for warm fermenting lagers. I just had my first pint of a helles I brewed on July 27th. It never went below 72 during fermentation and was upwards of 80 at the height of fermentation and it has no off tastes that I can detect.

 

[DannyBoy270]

given you were using 34/70 I doubt your unwanted flavors Came from pitching too warm. 34/70 is a rockstar for warm fermenting lagers. I just had my first pint of a helles I brewed on July 27th. It never went below 72 during fermentation and was upwards of 80 at the height of fermentation and it has no off tastes that I can detect.

Ha I've got nothing then, but hopefully it dissipates during carbonation.

 

[RePete]

The first batch had this same bubble gum taste, but after letting sit it cleared up. It was more pronounced on the second batch, which is in the keg now. I'm glad to know it's not the yeast. I'm using a small kegorator as a fermentation chamber. It was sitting around 50* for a week or so, and then brought to room temp in the basement. The only aeration I do is letting the wort splash running into the fermenter.

This latest batch has sat at around 50* for a few days. I just increased to 60*. Although it sounds like this yeast can go quite a bit higher. The package gives a max temp of 72*.

I said that I used 2 packages this time. But I was clumsy and spilled some. It probably was closer to 1.5.

I'm just glad to know what it is. I've done alot of brewing, but it's all been ales up until recently, and I've never had this taste.

 

[Jag75]

Yes, I fermented on a schedule similar to thisView attachment 694649

I'm not sure this qualifies as D rest and could be your problem. When I brew a lager I ramp up the temp 3 degrees a day once fermentation is at 75%. When I get to 66/67 degrees I hold for 3 days. Then I drop temp 3 degrees a day until it reaches 38. Then I keg.

 

[RePete]

given you were using 34/70 I doubt your unwanted flavors Came from pitching too warm. 34/70 is a rockstar for warm fermenting lagers. I just had my first pint of a helles I brewed on July 27th. It never went below 72 during fermentation and was upwards of 80 at the height of fermentation and it has no off tastes that I can detect.

That's interesting. When I started my first lager, I used 34/70 because I didn't have a way to control temperature. I just sat the fermenter on the basement floor. It would get to the mid 70's. I have since purchased a small kegorator, and have been using that. But it's not as precise temperature wise as some of you seem to be. And I would rather use it as a kegorator. Lol. I may have to just ferment warmer, in the 70's, and see how it goes. The package gives the max range at 72*, so I was worried that I was getting above that. Maybe it's not a problem?

 

[Elric]

That's interesting. When I started my first lager, I used 34/70 because I didn't have a way to control temperature. I just sat the fermenter on the basement floor. It would get to the mid 70's. I have since purchased a small kegorator, and have been using that. But it's not as precise temperature wise as some of you seem to be. And I would rather use it as a kegorator. Lol. I may have to just ferment warmer, in the 70's, and see how it goes. The package gives the max range at 72*, so I was worried that I was getting above that. Maybe it's not a problem?

Honestly, I have made 3 warm fermented lagers with it. The first one was a dunkel, did nothing to it just let it ferment at room temp, awesome no off flavors. Second was a helles. This one during active fermentation I kept in a swamp cooler to try to keep it in the 60s. I found there was a slight hint of green apple to it. Third was this current helles, i just let it rip and it tastes really clean. Now the first helles was only pilsner and acidulated malt so maybe the grain bills of the other two are masking the off flavor, but when only the one i tried to temp control Is the only one where i found any off flavors (they were pretty minor, but i did notice them, beer was still really good though!), then I am inclined to say warm isn't an issue. Maybe there is a middle temp range where it isn't happy and puts out off flavors? Maybe that's why some people report great warm ferment results with it and others complain, as the ranges they are warm fermenting at are different?

 

[RePete]

Honestly, I have made 3 warm fermented lagers with it. The first one was a dunkel, did nothing to it just let it ferment at room temp, awesome no off flavors. Second was a helles. This one during active fermentation I kept in a swamp cooler to try to keep it in the 60s. I found there was a slight hint of green apple to it. Third was this current helles, i just let it rip and it tastes really clean. Now the first helles was only pilsner and acidulated malt so maybe the grain bills of the other two are masking the off flavor, but when only the one i tried to temp control Is the only one where i found any off flavors (they were pretty minor, but i did notice them, beer was still really good though!), then I am inclined to say warm isn't an issue. Maybe there is a middle temp range where it isn't happy and puts out off flavors? Maybe that's why some people report great warm ferment results with it and others complain, as the ranges they are warm fermenting at are different?

I'm going to try the next one just one with the fermenter just sitting on the basement floor. And pitch plenty of yeast. We haven't had our usual August so far. It's been cooler than July was. It has been very comfortable.