First lager proving challenging--fighting green apple and butter

[Horseflesh]

I’d rather spend a few bucks than spend days making a multi step starter. I do have a few 1.7L jars of starter wort though.

 

[FunkedOut]

I use this calculator with good results:
http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php

It says that for 5 gallons of 1.057 wort, lager pitch rate should be 399 billion cells.
Fermentis guarantees 69 billion cells per pack.

That’s 6 packs.
That’s 1 pack and a 2.2L starter.
That’s 2 packs and a 1.7L starter.

 

[RM-MN]

How quickly do you want the yeast to start showing signs of fermentation and how well can your aerate the wort before pitching? Well aerated wort will grow a single packet into the amount needed but it will have a longer lag time which could allow bacteria a start and gain you some interesting flavor. It isn't real likely but it could happen.

 

[Horseflesh]

I have pure O2 and one of those special wands, so I can oxygenate effectively. (I always do, need it or not, it can't hurt.)

I am happy to do a 1-step starter, multiple steps is where it stops being fun. I think @FunkedOut has the right idea, though I may need 3 packs, depends on which numbers you want to believe. Also, my total wort volume will be more like 5.75 gal meaning I would need 458B cells.

The Fermentis guarantee of 69B may be conservative according to this:

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=20977.0

If I use the lowest cells per gram in the results table it's more like 92B per 11.5 g pack, say 180B for 2 packs. A 1.7 liter starter would fall short at 420B cells. So, it is right on the border, I could have enough if the pack is more dense than expected, or fall short. So it looks like I should do a 3-pack 1.7 L starter just to be sure. That sure isn't saving any money, all yeast is expensive at my shop, but at least I can harvest and re-use.

 

[FunkedOut]

go ahead and get the 3 packs now.
use the calculator to build yourself an extra 100 billion cells to cold crash, decant and store.

next brew, skip the part where you buy 3 packs.

 

[Sadu]

For lagers its really really useful to repitch slurry from the last batch. 4 packs of 34/70 costs me the same as 15kg/33lb of pilsner base malt, screw that.
Aside from cost, repitched slurry can be super healthy if you brew often, definitely better than a smackpack that's been at the HBS for however long.

 

[schematix]

don't make a starter from dry yeast. takes away the benefits of using dry yeast and depletes the built in reserves. buy another pack.

 

[Horseflesh]

Aside from cost, repitched slurry can be super healthy if you brew often, definitely better than a smackpack that's been at the HBS for however long.

I've been reusing slurry for about the last 9 months and it's worked out great so far. I take no special care other than scooping the yeast cake into a sanitized container.

 

[YeastHerder]

Will do.

On the subject of lagers... while I would like to master the Mexican yeast just 'cuz I like the idea of a Mexican-inspired lager, what dry yeast would you guys recommend? I have read that W-34/70 is nice and reliable.

W-34/70 is likely the same thing as WLP830, which us reported to be from Weihenstephan and according to white labs its "one of the most widely used lager strains in the world," so its a pretty safe bet. I use 830 and have been cultivating it on my own for a couple years now. Seems stable over time too.

 

[Horseflesh]

Maybe this is a good benchmark.... I pitch tons of yeast and i've never had a beer take longer than a few weeks to become extremely drinkable, even lagers. Hell the fermenting beer doesn't have any off flavors other than just being yeasty. I don't get *any* green apple or *any* butter.

Right now I am drinking Jamil's Czech pilsner that I brewed 25 days ago, with the advice from this thread and other places. It is still not totally clear, but it tastes very good. As you have observed I didn't get any off-flavors other than yeast when I tasted samples along the way.

I used 34/70 for 2 weeks at 50F, ramped to room temp over a few days, stayed there for a few more days, then a few more days of cold crashing with gelatin and into the keg.

Since I couldn't taste any diacetyl maybe I didn't need the warm d-rest step, but I guess it doesn't hurt.

This is very encouraging! I think it's the season of lagers for me.