First Flanders Red

[rwing7486]

Hey Everyone. I am attempting to brew my first Flanders red using Jamil's 2007 Gold medal winning grain bill (see link below) and was hoping for some feedback on my process. With that said I do plan to sour my beer differently without using any of the commercial strains from WL or WY. http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/jamils-flanders-red/

Here is my game plan:

2 weeks before brew day I plan to grab two fresh bottles of Jolly Pumkin La Roja and pour out the beer into glasses with friends leaving about 1 inch of beer on the bottom in each bottle. I will then add 1 cup of starter wort to each, cover with aluminum foil and let sit out on my bar area. I plan to gently shake the bottles every so often for the 2 next two weeks.

Brew Day:
Mash at 152 and boil for 90 minutes with a single hop addition at 60 minutes. I plan to chill my wort down to around 100 - 110 degrees F and add 0.75lb of uncrushed 2 row into the wort. I will let this sit for 3 to 5 days on a brewers mat. I will then transfer the wort into my glass primary fermenter. Question I have can I pour the sour wort into the fermenter since no yeast has been added? or is oxygen not desired in the souring process, therefore I should rack it over? Also after the 3 to 5 days should I bring the wort back up to a boil and let it cool down again before adding to my primary?

Fermentation:
Once wort is in the primary I will then proceed to pitch my two bottle starters followed by 1 packet of rehydrated us05 the following day ( I want to give my bottle dregs a 1 day head start ). I will let the beer ferment for 3 months in the primary

Bottling:
After 3 months of fermentation I plan to cold transfer to my bottling bucket (no cold crash) and add enough corn sugar to carbonate to a level of 2.0 vols. My question is after the 3 month fermentation and cold crashing do I need to pitch some more yeast in my bottling bucket for carbonation?


Thanks in advance for your feedback

 

[Oldsock]

I'd start with less wort if you are growing the dregs (I tend to co-pitch directly from the bottle with the Sacch). There aren't many cells and you want activity quickly. You can step up after a week. I'd also switch to an airlock eventually, too much oxygen will encourage undesirable aerobic bacteria (e.g., Acetobacter).

I'd skip the wort souring step, Jolly Pumpkin dregs will get the job done in the fermentor with lower risk of weird flavors.

Three months is a quick turnaround for a sour beer. It may or may not be ready. Each .001 drop will produce an extra .5 vol of CO2. So if you prime for 2.0 and it drops .004 post-bottling you may be dodging shards of glass... Check the gravity after two months, and again after three. If it has dropped give it another month and repeat until it is stable. You shouldn't need to repitch, although some rehydrated wine yeast will speed things up especially after nine months or longer of aging.

I used Jamil's recipe/process for my first Flemish Red in 2007, the malt bill is great but his clean primary followed by Roeselare was too mild for my palate (even back then). Saving the last bottle for a few more months to enjoy on the 10th anniversary of brewing it!

 

[tagz]

i'd skip the wort souring step, jolly pumpkin dregs will get the job done in the fermentor with lower risk of weird flavors.

+1

 

[spexicola]

In my experience, you're not going to see a fast (3 month) turnaround with JP cultures. They seem to have a lot of enteric bacteria, which when put in an unfinished wort, will give off some rancid flavors until the yeasts have had time to work on it.

Personally, I have a golden sour that I brewed just over a year ago with propagated Bam Noire dregs, which still has a cheesy note to it. However, it also has the most unbelievable bouquet of fruit aromas and flavors that I've ever seen in a beer. I just repitched it with Bretts B and C as well as S05 with some wheat malt and honey to try to flush/metabolize the last of the butyric/isovaleric funk out of it. We'll se how it goes.

That said, I'm not sure how the JP culture primary would taste in a Flanders, and whether or not you'll have enough in 2 weeks of propagation to do much good. My JP start took over a week to show any sign of fermentation, and about 2-3 weeks to step up from there, and I still believe I underpitched it, as it took the beer over 2 weeks to show mild fermentation, and nearly 2 months to finish attenuating. There was also a few months where it got sick, so plan for that as well.

I would advise that you finish the beer with Saccaromyces, and use that extra time to prop the JP dregs up a bit more, then add them to the finished beer. That should solve any garbage-smell/slime-beer issues (per Rudi at Rodenbach, also consistent with Ron's methodology at JP). You could add a little maltodextrin to the wort to leave behind some nutrient for the yeast, if you like.

EDIT: And +1 to not sour worting with grain. That's always a crap-shoot. The JP Pediococcus strain(s) is(are) notoriously voracious and resistant to hopping, and you'll have more complexity from JP than you know what to do with, trust me.

 

[rwing7486]

In my experience, you're not going to see a fast (3 month) turnaround with JP cultures. They seem to have a lot of enteric bacteria, which when put in an unfinished wort, will give off some rancid flavors until the yeasts have had time to work on it.

Personally, I have a golden sour that I brewed just over a year ago with propagated Bam Noire dregs, which still has a cheesy note to it. However, it also has the most unbelievable bouquet of fruit aromas and flavors that I've ever seen in a beer. I just repitched it with Bretts B and C as well as S05 with some wheat malt and honey to try to flush/metabolize the last of the butyric/isovaleric funk out of it. We'll se how it goes.

That said, I'm not sure how the JP culture primary would taste in a Flanders, and whether or not you'll have enough in 2 weeks of propagation to do much good. My JP start took over a week to show any sign of fermentation, and about 2-3 weeks to step up from there, and I still believe I underpitched it, as it took the beer over 2 weeks to show mild fermentation, and nearly 2 months to finish attenuating. There was also a few months where it got sick, so plan for that as well.

I would advise that you finish the beer with Saccaromyces, and use that extra time to prop the JP dregs up a bit more, then add them to the finished beer. That should solve any garbage-smell/slime-beer issues (per Rudi at Rodenbach, also consistent with Ron's methodology at JP). You could add a little maltodextrin to the wort to leave behind some nutrient for the yeast, if you like.

EDIT: And +1 to not sour worting with grain. That's always a crap-shoot. The JP Pediococcus strain(s) is(are) notoriously voracious and resistant to hopping, and you'll have more complexity from JP than you know what to do with, trust me.

hmm I see. with the jolly pumpkin dregs did you add a little starter wort to each bottle for a week or 2 before pitching into your secondary?

I have read people adding bacteria to both the primary and secondary. I have no problem with letting the sour age up to a year in a fermenter. I am just looking for a process that will yield me a balanced flanders red. I am also considering of adding French oak cubes to the secondary as well.

 

[spexicola]

hmm I see. with the jolly pumpkin dregs did you add a little starter wort to each bottle for a week or 2 before pitching into your secondary?

Not quite, but close enough.

I saved the last 2ish ounces, and added it to 100mL (sorry for mixed units, lol) of sterile wort in a 250mL Erlenmeyer flask and incubated for a couple of weeks, so pretty much the same process. I then stepped it to 250mL and then 500mL on the stirplate. It looked very active when I pitched, but the extended lag and slow fermentation was nerve-wracking.

JP is a strange beast when used for primary. Ron has even said that he wasn't too fond of beers that used their house culture for the primary. He said they came out very sour and funky (ie, not balanced). I can attest to that, as I mentioned in my previous post. My beer is, to be a little crass, wild as ****, lol.

 

[rwing7486]

Not quite, but close enough.

I saved the last 2ish ounces, and added it to 100mL (sorry for mixed units, lol) of sterile wort in a 250mL Erlenmeyer flask and incubated for a couple of weeks, so pretty much the same process. I then stepped it to 250mL and then 500mL on the stirplate. It looked very active when I pitched, but the extended lag and slow fermentation was nerve-wracking.

JP is a strange beast when used for primary. Ron has even said that he wasn't too fond of beers that used their house culture for the primary. He said they came out very sour and funky (ie, not balanced). I can attest to that, as I mentioned in my previous post. My beer is, to be a little crass, wild as ****, lol.

hahaha gotchya. So maybe I should plan to mash higher at like 154 or 156 with us05 and then to leave some sugars behind for the bugs to eat in the secondary? I am still intrigued by the "fast" souring method with adding uncrushed grain to utilize the lacto bacteria. I only planned on adding a couple of bottle dregs after the fact to have some brett funk added to my flanders.

 

[spexicola]

Here's the thing on fast souring... It's heavily reliant on Lactobacillus, which plays a very minimal role in traditional sour beers, as it's not very tolerant of alcohol and hops. The issue with it is, that it tends to produce the berliner-weiss flavor profile in almost anything you use it in, which is fairly one dimensional.

Most long aged sours, such as Flanders, rely mostly on Pediococcus + Brett to generate a much broader sensory palette, as Pedio is thought to produce other compounds (wastes) that the brett can metabolize into tasty molecules.

As for grain as a source for Lactobacillus, I'd recommend trying Fage yogurt, as it has much less chance of contributing contaminating bacteria to the wort. I have had good luck with that personally, although sometimes I get a starter that doesn't get sour enough. Most are fine and land in the 3.5-3.7 range.

If you haven't already, invest in a cheap pH meter, 88% lactic acid, and some 25mL pipettes and a pump (linked below). Without the meter, there's too much guess work, and you should be pre-adjusting all fast-souring wort to pH 4.5 before pitching bacteria (or say hello to the cheese!). The 25mL pipettes deliver the perfect volume to take a pH reading, and come out of the packet sterile.

Pipette pump
25mL Sterile pipettes
pH Meter
88% Lactic acid solution

 

[rwing7486]

Here's the thing on fast souring... It's heavily reliant on Lactobacillus, which plays a very minimal role in traditional sour beers, as it's not very tolerant of alcohol and hops. The issue with it is, that it tends to produce the berliner-weiss flavor profile in almost anything you use it in, which is fairly one dimensional.

Most long aged sours, such as Flanders, rely mostly on Pediococcus + Brett to generate a much broader sensory palette, as Pedio is thought to produce other compounds (wastes) that the brett can metabolize into tasty molecules.

As for grain as a source for Lactobacillus, I'd recommend trying Fage yogurt, as it has much less chance of contributing contaminating bacteria to the wort. I have had good luck with that personally, although sometimes I get a starter that doesn't get sour enough. Most are fine and land in the 3.5-3.7 range.

If you haven't already, invest in a cheap pH meter, 88% lactic acid, and some 25mL pipettes and a pump (linked below). Without the meter, there's too much guess work, and you should be pre-adjusting all fast-souring wort to pH 4.5 before pitching bacteria (or say hello to the cheese!). The 25mL pipettes deliver the perfect volume to take a pH reading, and come out of the packet sterile.

Pipette pump
25mL Sterile pipettes
pH Meter
88% Lactic acid solution

very good information. thank you. But from my reading Lacto, Pedio and Acetiobacter prudce the acid and esters needed for a flanders red. Brett produces esters and small amount of additional acids and also aids in attenuation. So my idea would be to proceed with the souring in the kettle technique with unmilled grains and check the pH level everyday day or so until the pH reaches a level of 4.5 - then rack over to my glass carboy and pitch my US05.

I know you mentioned the risk of pitching the jolly pumpkin dregs in the primary. So I was thinking maybe for the primary I pitch some bottle dregs from the breuery oude tart with the us05 yeast and after a month rack over to a secondary and add bottle dregs from La Roja and let the beer age for at least 6 months. Thoughts?

 

[spexicola]

It's true that Lacto/Pedio/Aceto are all involved, however, the Lactobacillus, at least in Cantillon's foudres (see citation below), doesn't appear to play a very significant role, and will only be active while the alcohol level is fairly low, ie the very beginning of the fermentation. Since Rodenbach uses finished (with Sacc) beer to fill their foudres, I'd wager the contribution of Lactobacillus is even less with the typical Flanders. If you use fresh hops, then anything over 5 IBU and the lacto will do nearly nothing.

If you want to try a Lactobacillus fast-soured Flanders, find some Rivertown Soulless, and compare it to Rodenbach. It's not a good flavor, IMO. Like over-malty stale berlinner.

If you're going to sour in the kettle with grain (again, I don't recommend that you do), then you're going to want to adjust the pH of the wort to 4.5 before you pitch the grain. Grain is FULL of Clostridium butyricum, which if it takes hold, will kick out butyric acid (pure vomit smell) like nobody's business. Pre-acidifying the wort prevents the Clostridium spores from germinating, thereby solving the puke cheese problem before it starts.

If you're going to pitch dregs in the primary along with Sacc yeast, then use JP. The S05 will kick in and drop the pH with CO2 long before the enteric bacteria start making trouble. Any dregs that have pedio in them (including Oude Tart I believe), when put in the primary with ample sugar tend to have a higher likelihood of making the beer sick for awhile. It's not peculiar to JP's. The caveat with JP is the wild bacteria that comes with it, as Ron uses a semi-spontaneous process, which co-pitching with S05 goes a long way to resolve.

I think that when we start talking about grain pre-souring, sacc/dreg primary, and then other dreg secondary, then the fermentation schedule is getting to be more cumbersome than it need be.

If it were me, I'd:

1. Brew the Flanders recipe from Jamil's Brewing Classic Styles, but add some maltodextrin to the grist.
2. Ferment with S05 for a week or so until it's finished (mostly).
3. Add your propagated JP dregs, oak, and maybe an extra smack pack of Pediococcus.
4. Forget it for 3 months and then check the pH and taste for acidity.
5. Check up on it every couple of months thereafter. Opening the fermenter infrequently should help the acetic character build.
6. When you like it, cold crash, bottle condition, and keep it cold until it's gone. If you want to lay some back to age, bottle some off in high-pressure bottles. It should continue to gain lactic sourness and brett character for a few years.

Microbial diversity at Cantillon

If you're itching to do a fast-sour, after you get the flanders going, do a kettle soured golden/pale ale and dry hop it with Amarillo and Citra. I make that beer all the time using DME. I end up having 2 hours work in 5 gallons, and it tastes like delicious hoppy grapefruit juice. Love. That. EZ. Beer!

 

[rwing7486]

It's true that Lacto/Pedio/Aceto are all involved, however, the Lactobacillus, at least in Cantillon's foudres (see citation below), doesn't appear to play a very significant role, and will only be active while the alcohol level is fairly low, ie the very beginning of the fermentation. Since Rodenbach uses finished (with Sacc) beer to fill their foudres, I'd wager the contribution of Lactobacillus is even less with the typical Flanders. If you use fresh hops, then anything over 5 IBU and the lacto will do nearly nothing.

If you want to try a Lactobacillus fast-soured Flanders, find some Rivertown Soulless, and compare it to Rodenbach. It's not a good flavor, IMO. Like over-malty stale berlinner.

If you're going to sour in the kettle with grain (again, I don't recommend that you do), then you're going to want to adjust the pH of the wort to 4.5 before you pitch the grain. Grain is FULL of Clostridium butyricum, which if it takes hold, will kick out butyric acid (pure vomit smell) like nobody's business. Pre-acidifying the wort prevents the Clostridium spores from germinating, thereby solving the puke cheese problem before it starts.

If you're going to pitch dregs in the primary along with Sacc yeast, then use JP. The S05 will kick in and drop the pH with CO2 long before the enteric bacteria start making trouble. Any dregs that have pedio in them (including Oude Tart I believe), when put in the primary with ample sugar tend to have a higher likelihood of making the beer sick for awhile. It's not peculiar to JP's. The caveat with JP is the wild bacteria that comes with it, as Ron uses a semi-spontaneous process, which co-pitching with S05 goes a long way to resolve.

I think that when we start talking about grain pre-souring, sacc/dreg primary, and then other dreg secondary, then the fermentation schedule is getting to be more cumbersome than it need be.

If it were me, I'd:

1. Brew the Flanders recipe from Jamil's Brewing Classic Styles, but add some maltodextrin to the grist.
2. Ferment with S05 for a week or so until it's finished (mostly).
3. Add your propagated JP dregs, oak, and maybe an extra smack pack of Pediococcus.
4. Forget it for 3 months and then check the pH and taste for acidity.
5. Check up on it every couple of months thereafter. Opening the fermenter infrequently should help the acetic character build.
6. When you like it, cold crash, bottle condition, and keep it cold until it's gone. If you want to lay some back to age, bottle some off in high-pressure bottles. It should continue to gain lactic sourness and brett character for a few years.

Microbial diversity at Cantillon

If you're itching to do a fast-sour, after you get the flanders going, do a kettle soured golden/pale ale and dry hop it with Amarillo and Citra. I make that beer all the time using DME. I end up having 2 hours work in 5 gallons, and it tastes like delicious hoppy grapefruit juice. Love. That. EZ. Beer!

Alright you twisted my arm, I will primary ferment with US05 only. When pitching dregs and oak in guessing it's best to rack over to a secondary first correct? Also if I take dregs from two bottles of JP la Roja, how big of a starter would you suggest I build to pitch into the secondary? And would you cold crash the starter and decant before pitching? I'm also assuming I should take a pH reading after primary and add Latic acid if needed to drop the pH to the correct level.

What is the reason for adding some maltodextrin dextrine? And since I'm aging the sour for 8 to 12 months in the secondary
Should I only use a very small amount of oak cubes - like 0.25 to .5 ounces?

 

[505-Brewer]

+1

+2 JP dregs r potent. If you do want to pre-sour the wort with grain do so by making a starter from grain first. Less risky. In fact you can step the starter up once more to ne certain you have nice lacto population.

I had a malty brown porter that I added jp dregs to and 1 lb of currants and it got down to pH 3.2 or so. Racked half off and refilled w light dry extract based wort and some maltodextrine and that beer (now an amber I suppose) is pH 2.7-2.8. Super tasty and all set for blending. Id say w jp dregs mash low ferment out really when then add your jp starter. 3 months it'll be nice and sour.

 

[rwing7486]

+2 JP dregs r potent. If you do want to pre-sour the wort with grain do so by making a starter from grain first. Less risky. In fact you can step the starter up once more to ne certain you have nice lacto population.

I had a malty brown porter that I added jp dregs to and 1 lb of currants and it got down to pH 3.2 or so. Racked half off and refilled w light dry extract based wort and some maltodextrine and that beer (now an amber I suppose) is pH 2.7-2.8. Super tasty and all set for blending. Id say w jp dregs mash low ferment out really when then add your jp starter. 3 months it'll be nice and sour.

After primary fermentation did you transfer the wort over to a secondary before adding your dregs or did you leave it right in the primary?