First extract brew

[capt82]

Doing my first extract recipe with LME. I saw some threads with people adding DME or LME at various times during the boil. Got me thinking.

Does an extract still have the proteins that need a cold break?

I'm guessing it does. I just want to be sure to calculate my water needs correctly. Thanks for any advice.

 

[RM-MN]

Doing my first extract recipe with LME. I saw some threads with people adding DME or LME at various times during the boil. Got me thinking.

Does an extract still have the proteins that need a cold break?

I'm guessing it does. I just want to be sure to calculate my water needs correctly. Thanks for any advice.

Yes there are still proteins that will coagulate for cold break. That doesn't mean you need to adjust the water specifically for that. Plan on putting 5.25 gallons into the fermenter since you will lose a little to hop and yeast. The cold break will be a pretty small amount once it settled out so just dump everything into the fermenter and let it sit long enough for all the trub to settle out and compact before you bottle.

The reason the extract is added at different times is for the proper bittering from the hops that need a little extract but extract that is boiled for the full 60 minutes tends to darken from the Maillard reaction so the beer comes out too dark. By delaying the addition of most of the extract that reaction is avoided.

 

[capt82]

RM-MN

The cold break will be a pretty small amount once it settled out so just dump everything into the fermenter and let it sit long enough for all the trub to settle out and compact before you bottle.

In my AG setup, after the cold break I usually leave about a 1/2 gallon trub in kettle. I wouldn't put that in my fermenter. Are you saying there is much less trub with extract?

but extract that is boiled for the full 60 minutes tends to darken from the Maillard reaction so the beer comes out too dark. By delaying the addition of most of the extract that reaction is avoided.

Also in AG brewing I was under impression a minimal of a 60 minute boil was necessary to boil out undesirables. Are you saying in extract, 60 minute boil is not needed?

 

[RM-MN]

RM-MN


In my AG setup, after the cold break I usually leave about a 1/2 gallon trub in kettle. I wouldn't put that in my fermenter. Are you saying there is much less trub with extract?



Also in AG brewing I was under impression a minimal of a 60 minute boil was necessary to boil out undesirables. Are you saying in extract, 60 minute boil is not needed?

Why would you leave that half gallon behind. Most of it is wort that could have become beer and an experiment by ?Brulosophy ?? shows that the trub is beneficial in making clear beer. I always dump it all into the fermenter with no bad results, just more beer.

A 60 minute boil will isomerize the hop oils for bittering and boil off any SMM so you don't get DMS in your beer. What I tried to say was that you don't need to boil all the extract for 60 minutes. The majority of the SMM should have been reduced in making the concentrated extract.

Now for a different thought on the 60 minute boil, you only need that for the isomerization of the hop oils and to boil off SMM but the newer grains have little SMM to start with and the hop oils are about 90% isomerized in 30 minutes so several of us have adjusted the amount of hops and only do a 30 minute boil. I haven't seen any ill effect from it and it cuts half an hour off my brew day.

 

[capt82]

Thanks RM-MN,
I learned to AG using all the calculators to get my equipment profile just right, strike/sparge water perfect, timing the boil, all to get the perfect amount of wort/gravity in my fermenter after pitching my starter. It was all good at the beginning, but now the more I brew, I look for more short cuts without compromising quality. Smarter, not harder approach.

Thanks for the inspiration. I am brewing my LME recipe today. I think I will SWAG my water calculation on low end and use top off water in the fermenter to get my desired gravity. Not sure if I'm there yet to dump all the trub in fermenter. I think I will attempt to drain all the wort from kettle leaving the bulk of trub.

 

[ncbrewer]

Just as another data point, I started dumping all the trub into the fermenter several years ago. Never noticed any ill effects.

 

[capt82]

I brewed the LME brew today and noticed the proteins did not coagulate like AG does. With most AG brews I've done, the proteins with the help of Irish moss coagulates to the point you can almost pour the wort out while holding back the blob of trub.

Not the case with LME. I took RM-MNs' advice and just put it all in the fermenter. I tried to separate the wort from the trub but even with Irish moss, the proteins didn't coagulate well. Seems like when I rack it to my secondary, it's going to pump some of that fine trub in.

I also tried a 30 minute boil. Between the LME, SWAGing water calcs, and 30 minute boil, I cut my brew day in half.

 

[ncbrewer]

Seems like when I rack it to my secondary, it's going to pump some of that fine trub in.

Few brewers secondary any more for "standard" beers. It's been found that it doesn't produce clearer beer and adds another chance for contamination or oxidation.

 

[capt82]

I like to rack to a secondary for several reasons,

It does seem to clarify since your essentially decanting off the clear wort.
My secondary is my bottling bucket as well (valve).
When I stir in my priming sugar, it doesn't kick up trub to go in bottles.
My secondary fits in my refrigerator for cold crashing, primary doesn't.

ncbrewer, I respect where you come from on this but perhaps I'm not skilled enough to rack from primary into a bottle without too much trub. I also see that a lot of brewers do not care about any trub in bottles. I still do.

 

[ncbrewer]

capt82: Sorry if I sounded like there's a right and wrong way. Just didn't know if you were aware of the trend. One of the really great things about brewing is that you have lots of options.

 

[capt82]

ncbrewer,
I have much to learn about brewing and want to hear from the more experienced. I appreciate your input and did not take it wrong/right.

 

[Yooper]

RM-MN


In my AG setup, after the cold break I usually leave about a 1/2 gallon trub in kettle. I wouldn't put that in my fermenter. Are you saying there is much less trub with extract?



Also in AG brewing I was under impression a minimal of a 60 minute boil was necessary to boil out undesirables. Are you saying in extract, 60 minute boil is not needed?

You do get less trub with extract, generally, but 1/2 gallon of trub is an extraordinarily large amount. In a 5 gallon batch, that's 10% of the batch! I would never throw away 10% of my hard-brewed beer. I'd look at whirlpooling or letting the batch sit a bit longer before sending to the fermenter so that you minimize that loss. I do 11 gallon batches, and often leave behind no more than a quart or two myself. Sometimes even less.

I like to rack to a secondary for several reasons,

It does seem to clarify since your essentially decanting off the clear wort.
My secondary is my bottling bucket as well (valve).
When I stir in my priming sugar, it doesn't kick up trub to go in bottles.
My secondary fits in my refrigerator for cold crashing, primary doesn't.

ncbrewer, I respect where you come from on this but perhaps I'm not skilled enough to rack from primary into a bottle without too much trub. I also see that a lot of brewers do not care about any trub in bottles. I still do.

Racking to a secondary doesn't clear the beer. Racking does decant the clear beer off of the yeast, yes, but it doesn't need to go to a secondary to do that. Remember that a bucket is an extremely poor choice for a secondary, and the beer should only be in there very briefly, like to bottle it. The wide headspace means it is not a good vessel for storing or clarifying the beer, and stirring in the priming sugar means an even bigger risk of oxidation. I would highly recommend that if you're going to do a secondary (I rarely do, but sometimes), then use an appropriately sized carboy for the batch size, and then rack to a bottling bucket to bottle. In the bottling bucket, you would add the priming sugar solution to the bucket first, and then rack the beer into it, so that it fills from the bottom in a circular pattern, so that the beer mixes with the priming sugar. Then, immediately bottle.

I have less than a dusting of sediment in my bottles.

 

[capt82]

Yooper
The 1/2 gallon wort I normally loose in the kettle is easy to calculate to make up for the loss of volume. It seems I am going to loose this same volume out of my primary anyways when I rack to secondary, but I can't make up for that loss, just less beer.

I agree about the head space and my secondary/bottling bucket has no more than my primary. I ferment in a 6.5 gallon Big Mouth Bubbler. I then use two-3 gallon rectangular vessels with a wide lid and valve as a secondary/bottling "bucket." (sorry, not actual bucket). The two-3 gallon vessels fit in my refrigerator for cold crashing. Also, I could experiment with priming same beer with different volumes of CO2, flavorings, etc...

I stir in my priming solution gingerly, not to make bubbles and since it's still cold from the crash, any fine trub particles that do get kicked up, falls to bottom quickly, below the valve as I'm bottling. I do not rack a third time to a bottling bucket. All my bottles seem to be carbonated the same with no trub.

 

[Yooper]

Yooper
The 1/2 gallon wort I normally loose in the kettle is easy to calculate to make up for the loss of volume. It seems I am going to loose this same volume out of my primary anyways when I rack to secondary, but I can't make up for that loss, just less beer.

I agree about the head space and my secondary/bottling bucket has no more than my primary. I ferment in a 6.5 gallon Big Mouth Bubbler. I then use two-3 gallon rectangular vessels with a wide lid and valve as a secondary/bottling "bucket." (sorry, not actual bucket). The two-3 gallon vessels fit in my refrigerator for cold crashing. Also, I could experiment with priming same beer with different volumes of CO2, flavorings, etc...

I stir in my priming solution gingerly, not to make bubbles and since it's still cold from the crash, any fine trub particles that do get kicked up, falls to bottom quickly, below the valve as I'm bottling. I do not rack a third time to a bottling bucket. All my bottles seem to be carbonated the same with no trub.

If you are pleased with your results with the loss of 1/2 gallon of wort, the large headspace in the fermenter, and stirring your priming solution in, that's great and you should continue with your process. We all want to make what we like, and you shouldn't change your process if it doesn't need improving!

 

[kh54s10]

RM-MN


In my AG setup, after the cold break I usually leave about a 1/2 gallon trub in kettle. I wouldn't put that in my fermenter. Are you saying there is much less trub with extract?



Also in AG brewing I was under impression a minimal of a 60 minute boil was necessary to boil out undesirables. Are you saying in extract, 60 minute boil is not needed?

I wonder why you are getting so much trub. Is it hops? I use a 5 gallon paint strainer bag to contain my hops. I leave less than a cup of the thickest debris in the BK. When I siphon out of the primary (to keg or bottling bucket) I leave less than 1/4 inch in the fermenter. It is less than 1 quart.

 

[capt82]

kh54s10,
I also use a paint strainer for my hops. I think it's my base malt. I normally AG and use a US 2 row. I brewed an AG Chocolate Stout last month with a German Munich as a base malt. The trub was minimal, like what you describe.

This beer, I used LME for first time as a base malt. I could have left about a 1/2 gallon of trub in kettle but I decided to try it all in primary. It looks like I will have At least a 1/2 gallon trub left in primary.

I normally leave about 1/2 gallon in kettle and about a quart at bottom of primary. I thought that was normal for everyone. All the online calculators seem to be preset at 1/2 gallon of kettle loss too so it's been figured in my calculations.

 

[RM-MN]

kh54s10,
I also use a paint strainer for my hops. I think it's my base malt. I normally AG and use a US 2 row. I brewed an AG Chocolate Stout last month with a German Munich as a base malt. The trub was minimal, like what you describe.

This beer, I used LME for first time as a base malt. I could have left about a 1/2 gallon of trub in kettle but I decided to try it all in primary. It looks like I will have At least a 1/2 gallon trub left in primary.

I normally leave about 1/2 gallon in kettle and about a quart at bottom of primary. I thought that was normal for everyone. All the online calculators seem to be preset at 1/2 gallon of kettle loss too so it's been figured in my calculations.

Taht's not likely unless you put in a ton of hops. Most trub is simply cold break material suspended in the wort. It isn't very dense and most of what people leave behind would make good beer. I'll bet when it settles out you won't notice much difference from when you left it behind...except for the extra beer you hadn't planned on. You should ship that excess beer to me.

 

[capt82]

Taht's not likely unless you put in a ton of hops. Most trub is simply cold break material suspended in the wort. It isn't very dense and most of what people leave behind would make good beer. I'll bet when it settles out you won't notice much difference from when you left it behind...except for the extra beer you hadn't planned on. You should ship that excess beer to me.

This is a first for me to put trub in fermenter. I'm courious what it will look like in about 1 to 1 1/2 weeks when I rack to secondary. Seems there are plenty of fans of this.

 

[RM-MN]

This is a first for me to put trub in fermenter. I'm courious what it will look like in about 1 to 1 1/2 weeks when I rack to secondary. Seems there are plenty of fans of this.

Leave the beer in the primary for 3 weeks and don't rack to secondary. That way you'll find out just how much trub you end up with. You'll also find out that it is easier to clean one fermenter than 2 and you'll end up with just as clear of beer if not clearer. Many of us have quit using secondaries as they can be a source of oxidation and infections and don't really do what they are purported to do.