First Competition Results: Discouraged

[Lodovico]

Just thought I would vent on my favorite forum. Entered my first competition and just got the results. Pretty bummed. I thought I was making some pretty good beer but perhaps not. I entered:

English IPA: Scored a 27
Got crushed on aroma scores but I still feel like it is to style. It's not supposed to be as crazy hopped as an American style but, oh well. I guess I need to go crazy with aroma for future competition brews.

Sweet Stout: Scored a 24

This one I just don't get. Kept getting nailed for "not sweet enough". Two judges commented said I should have used lactose. I used 1.25 pounds of lactose. It is obvious when you taste the beer that there is lactose in the brew.

I'm not trying to be sour about it, but it seems that it should be obvious that there is a good amount of lactose in this one.

This brings up a question as well for those that have competition experience:

I was under the impression that entering a BJCP sanctioned competition meant getting my beer evaluated by BJCP certified judges?

Is this not the case?

Only 1 of the 5 feedback forms I received have a BJCP judge number and the rest didn't check any of the boxes or judging info. They just skipped it.
So I don't even know the qualifications of who is giving this feedback.

Is this normal?

I'm sure I'll get fired up and just strive to improve my beers, I'm just a little bummed and discouraged because I put a lot of time, effort, and research into my beers and I feel like I pay a lot of attention to detail on brew day.

Thoughts?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Not every CP'd, BJ is equal. And the reality is that you could enter those same EXACT beers into another comp and would likely get high marks if not "Best of freekin Show."

It's a very subjective entity, even if they are certified.

I've known some judges that wouldn't know lactose if it was coming from a bewb.

 

[Crazytwoknobs]

The brewing network guys have talked a lot about competing, and they go on for a long long time about how bad judging is sometimes (most of which is unjustified). But I seem to remember that in order to judge, you might only have had to take the exam (not achieve a certification), and sometimes not even that much.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

My thoughts are that most homebrew isn't as good as the brewers think it is Sorry.

Screw the judges, if you like your beer then that is all that matters. If you want honest feedback that doesn't pull punches, enter competitions.

Often comps will not be all BJCP judges. Sometimes, the judges may suck. But they are doing their best and it is still an honest opinion from someone who likes beer.

Also, both your scores were in the "good" range. Basically, that means you made a good beer, but it isn't awesome. I think many homebrewers think they are making world class beer, but it is just not the case. VERY few homebrewers brew beer as good as a good micro.

So chin up Charlie, you are doing just fine. Just have fun and make beer you like to drink.

 

[Lodovico]

My thoughts are that most homebrew isn't as good as the brewers think it is Sorry.

Screw the judges, if you like your beer then that is all that matters. If you want honest feedback that doesn't pull punches, enter competitions.

Often comps will not be all BJCP judges. Sometimes, the judges may suck. But they are doing their best and it is still an honest opinion from someone who likes beer.

Also, both your scores were in the "good" range. Basically, that means you made a good beer, but it isn't awesome. I think many homebrewers think they are making world class beer, but it is just not the case. VERY few homebrewers brew beer as good as a good micro.

So chin up Charlie, you are doing just fine. Just have fun and make beer you like to drink.

I hear what you're saying. I didn't think I was making world class beer, but I thought it was better than what I scored.

I guess I'm most disappointed that these weren't BJCP certified judges. Granted, I may have scored worse if they were, but I would at least be able to take the feedback more seriously and improve my brewing.

With this feedback from judges whose qualifications are a mystery, I don't know how much stock to put into the specific feedback.

You know what I mean?

 

[mkling]

I'm not a BJCP judge, but I will say that it is my understanding that good beer judges should never, ever, comment on ingredient additions or specific elements of the recipe. They can and should comment as much as they want on aroma, taste, and other sensory qualities of the beer in front of them (such as the comments like "not sweet enough"). They can and should compare it to their knowledge of the style. But given that they don't know the recipe, they should never say, "you should have used lactose". Good judges judge the qualities of the beer in front of them, but they shouldn't speculate on recipe & process that aren't provided to them.

 

[Weezknight]

I just entered my first competition, but I won't get the result for a couple more weeks.

Honestly I think I make pretty good beer, but I told my wife, I'd be happy to get somewhere in the 25-30 range for my scores. I like my beer, but I'm still very young in my brewing career.

Take the advice they gave, and give it a try, it may make for a better beer. Or, if it's not to your liking, just keep doing what you're doing, especially if YOU like it!

 

[Lodovico]

I'm not a BJCP judge, but I will say that it is my understanding that good beer judges should never, ever, comment on ingredient additions or specific elements of the recipe. They can and should comment as much as they want on aroma, taste, and other sensory qualities of the beer in front of them (such as the comments like "not sweet enough"). They can and should compare it to their knowledge of the style. But given that they don't know the recipe, they should never say, "you should have used lactose". Good judges judge the qualities of the beer in front of them, but they shouldn't speculate on recipe & process that aren't provided to them.

I guess I kind of thought this too. But I am new to this. It was just frustrating for two judges to comment on the importance of using Lactose in a Sweet Stout, when I used a pretty fair amount.

I guess this is what also makes me wonder about a couple of the judges? Most Sweet Stouts contain Lactose. That's what contributes the creamy mouthfeel and unfermented sweetness.

 

[Edcculus]

With the surge in popularity of competitions, there is sometimes a major lack in BJCP judges. Sometimes stewards are even called upon to judge. There are also different ranks. A 60 on the exam will get you "Recognized". 70=certified, 80=National, 90=Master. Bad scores don't necessarily reflect how good your beer is, they just reflect how that paticular set of judges think your beer compares to the style.

I agree that judges shouldn't speculate about a beer. You often put your foot in your mouth. In my BJCP class, we have been told that it is appropriate, and encouraged to offer suggestions on how to improve the beer in "General Impression".

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

With this feedback from judges whose qualifications are a mystery, I don't know how much stock to put into the specific feedback.

You know what I mean?

Honestly, I don't put that much stock in the BJCP. Being certified doesn't mean you know anything about good beer IMO. I would rather have Joe Schmoe who really knows his stuff that some Beer Snob who studied for a while and took a test.

Were the comments consistent? If so, I think I would trust them. I want to get into competitions but don't think my beer is good enough to win them yet. I have enough beer judges to know how good (or bad) my beer is. The only reason for me to enter comps would be to win Many people don't have good critics though, so comps are a great way to get an honest, and hopefully, informed review of your beer.

 

[Bernie Brewer]

Not every CP'd, BJ is equal. And the reality is that you could enter those same EXACT beers into another comp and would likely get high marks if not "Best of freekin Show."

It's a very subjective entity, even if they are certified.

I've known some judges that wouldn't know lactose if it was coming from a bewb.

+1000.

I don't care if a judge is certified or not,they still have their likes and dislikes, even though they'll never admit it. Any sport or competition that utilizes a system of judges is entirely subjective, so if you enter, you should not take it too seriously, good or bad. I've only entered one, and the three judges' reports were very different from one another.

 

[Doog_Si_Reeb]

I think one catch in the competition world is that some judges don't know the styles they are judging very well. Granted they took the test, but if they are judging a style of beer they don't particularly like, they haven't drank many commercial examples and they don't have a good base for judging, other than written descriptions.

As an example, I submitted a Saison to one competition last year and some of the judges told me that there were way too many phenolics. That same beer in a different competition got feedback that there was not enough phenolics to give it a Saison character, and I should try fermenting warmer on my next one.

 

[Lodovico]

I've known some judges that wouldn't know lactose if it was coming from a bewb.

Lol.

 

[StunnedMonkey]

Enter them into another competition. If you get similar scores/comments then you can probably accept them as an accurate interpretation of your beer. If they're wildly different...then I guess you'd need to enter a 3rd competition as a tiebreaker.

I'm no judge, and have entered only a handful of beers into competition. Of those some have scored about like I thought, some were trashed when I didn't think they were that bad, and a couple won medals when I thought they weren't all that great. It is, I think, sort of a crap shoot. I think a truly outstanding beer will stand out, regardless of how bad the judges might be, and I think a horrible beer will be evident as well. But that space between 25-35 seems wide open and subject as much to the judges personal tastes as anything else. Just my opinion.

 

[Wayne1]

As a Certified Beer Judge, I feel inclined to correct a few statements made about the BJCP system.

You DO have to take tests. They are both written and tasting. You have to pass with a certain number. THEN you have to judge in competitions. Once you get a certain number of experience points you move up the ranks. It doesn't matter what you score is on your tests, if you don't actually get out in the field and judge, you will never be certified.

"A judge with any passing score and fewer than 5 experience points receives the rank of Recognized.

Judges with a score of at least 70 on the exam and who have accumulated at least 5 experience points receive the Certified rank.

A score of 80 or above combined with 20 experience points provides the rank of National.

Judges achieve Master status by scoring 90 or better and acquiring 40 experience points.

There are also the Apprentice rank and several levels of Grand Master. Honorary ranks can be awarded; there are currently the Honorary Master and Honorary Grand Master ranks.

The Apprentice rank was created to encourage those who do not pass the exam to remain active with the program and to try the exam again in the future. Judges of Apprentice rank earn experience points and will remain on file as long as they continue to be active in registered competitions. They may not advance in rank until they achieve a passing grade on the exam, regardless of how many experience points they accumulate.

The Apprentice rank is contrasted with the term Novice, which is used to describe a relatively inexperienced judge who has not taken the BJCP exam but who has been allowed by a competition organizer to judge in a competition. Novice is not a BJCP rank, and a Novice Judge is not a member of the BJCP. "
From BJCP website.

In the competitions I judged last year, there was at least one Certified Judge for each round at each table. For BOS, the panel was usually made up of National and Master level judges.

The make up of the judging will be dependent of where your competition is. We are lucky, in Colorado, to have many people who have taken the time to study, pass the exams and volunteer to judge. ALL of the judges I have worked with are brewers. Most of them are fairly advanced and all are very passionate about beer.

Part of the training is to give advice as to how to improve the beer they tasted based on their own experience.

I am sorry you did not receive the feedback you were expecting. One thing that did help me as a brewer was to become a judge. I got to taste a lot of VERY good beer and I learned from these beers how to improve mine.

Brewing for competition is different than brewing for fun. To do well in competition, your beer MUST meet the guidelines for the style. Prior to judging a round, the judges are given a calibration beer that defines the style. All the information about the style is in front of the judges. If it does not meet the style in any way, you will be dinged points. Unfortunately, I have judged beers that I thought were superbly made, but were not to style.

For more information on the BJCP check out their website: http://www.bjcp.org/index.php

 

[3 Dog Brew]

(Prost to Wayne1's comments)

Okay, so I've been on both sides of this particular fence. In fact my first entries did worse than Lodovico's and I was very discouraged and resentful.

The best cure for this that I have found is to help with a judging yourself. I was nothing more than a Steward for the Dixie Cup, one of the largest competitions in the gulf coast area. Which means that I got to open and pour every beer in a particular category for each judge. That also meant that I got to follow along taste every entry and learn how this process takes place. I was Steward for a number of flights, but two of them stand out in my mind. The Barleywine flight and the Mead flight.

the Barleywine flight was the highlight of this "tour of duty" because I got to hear the comments and the perspectives of Mike Heniff, a legend in homebrewing in Houston. He wrote at least one article on Belgians for BYO. Anyway, I tasted all of the entries for the Barleywine category and I thought every one of them sucked. If any of these were commercial beers that I'd paid for, i'd of dumped them in the sink. These 4 judges were talking about the subtleties of flavors like horse blanket and wet cardboard, I just wanted somewhere to spit it out.

Same went for the Mead category. I remember well the Coffee/Cherry Metheglin that took second place in the Other Mead category. I couldn't drink that stuff, but it was far superior to anything else that I had tasted in this category.

So, the point... Yes, there is one... If you want to know how to win a competition, go volunteer to help at one. I promise, if you go into it with your eyes and ears wide open, your beer will improve as a result because you will learn something. If nothing else, you'll learn what not to do. Like submit a petulant sweet mead that has a 1/4 inch thick yeast cake in the bottom of the bottle because it continued to ferment after bottling into a dry, champagne fizzy mead by the time it got to judging.

 

[Hermit]

Honestly, I don't put that much stock in the BJCP. Being certified doesn't mean you know anything about good beer IMO. I would rather have Joe Schmoe who really knows his stuff that some Beer Snob who studied for a while and took a test.

Were the comments consistent? If so, I think I would trust them. I want to get into competitions but don't think my beer is good enough to win them yet. I have enough beer judges to know how good (or bad) my beer is. The only reason for me to enter comps would be to win Many people don't have good critics though, so comps are a great way to get an honest, and hopefully, informed review of your beer.

The ability to be objective is not easy for some folks, especially when it comes to themselves. My wife watches American Idol and I'll occasionally catch glimpses of some of the early contestants. Enough said?

 

[DBbrewing]

Yes I also get frustrated when I get the score sheets back but you have to take them with a grain of salt.

 

[mrmekon]

Read a little about the blind-taste tests that they put wine critics through and you'll start caring a little less about your scores. Taste reviews are very subjective, and they're influenced by prior knowledge, expectations, mood, etc. I think this article has been linked to in this forum before.

 

[Edcculus]

Great post Wayne.

I'd also like to add that a score in the 20's isn't bad. If you look in the lower left of your scoresheet, you see a breakdown of the scores. 21-29 is "Good". This means it was a well brewed beer, but might miss the mark a little on the style, or exhibit minor flaws.

If you want to do well in competitions, you really have to pay attention to the guidelines. Thats what judges are looking at when they judge your beer.

 

[BioBeing]

Honestly, I don't put that much stock in the BJCP. Being certified doesn't mean you know anything about good beer IMO. I would rather have Joe Schmoe who really knows his stuff that some Beer Snob who studied for a while and took a test.

Not being a beer judge myself, and a newbie to the hobby, I don't get this statement. I would have thought that most of the people who go on to become certified would be normal Joe Schmoe's who enjoyed the hobby enough to put the time in to do study and learn more. Does doing that automatically make one a Beer Snob, and therefore have one's opinion invalidated?

That said, I just entered my first competition, so my opinion of judges is possibly about to change

 

[jkarp]

Screw the judges, if you like your beer then that is all that matters. If you want honest feedback that doesn't pull punches, enter competitions.

I couldn't disagree more with this.

If you want honest feedback, join a club and share your beer at the meetings. BJCP certified means they know how to pass a test; not actually taste beer. Some of my most hilarious score sheet comments came from BJCP certified judges last year:

"No color" (on a raspberry cider)
"Wrong hops for style" (on a 100% Saaz pils)
"Too much pepper!" (on a Delirium Tremens clone)
"Not enough spice" (on same Delirium clone)
"Would have scored better as a Tripel" (again on DT clone)

I know the judges are doing their best but it's an impossible task when you think about it logically from your own tasting experience. All it takes is one off-style beer at the start of the tasting flight to blow the judges' palates. Hell, even what they had for dinner the night before or the toothpaste they used that morning can dramatically alter their impression of a beer or the ability to detect flaws.

Competitions can be fun, but don't put too much faith in the scores, and unless a comment is consistent across score sheets, don't put much faith in those either. Think of it more as a lottery.

 

[Edcculus]

I guess any "beer snob" could study for a while and take the test...but would they do good? I doubt there are any/many judges out there who don't homebrew. Hell, there are 3 pro brewers in my study group.

 

[FlyGuy]

Sorry to hear about your discouraging results. It sounds like you had a bad judging experience, but also that you may have had some unrealistic expectations.

This brings up a question as well for those that have competition experience:

I was under the impression that entering a BJCP sanctioned competition meant getting my beer evaluated by BJCP certified judges?

Is this not the case?

No, not at all. That's a big misconception. Getting sanctioning just means you will follow the basic rules of competitions advocated by the BJCP. They do not require that such competitions use BJCP judges.

Homebrew competitions are a lot like homebrew retailers. Some shops are good and some are bad. You have to figure out which are the good ones (where you can learn from the staff) and which are the bad ones (where you will take any advice with a grain of salt, or avoid them entirely).

Ask around here and find out which competitions have the best reputations (just like one might do for an LHBS). Those are the competitions to enter.

 

[Lodovico]

I appreciate the feedback. Wayne- good comments.

I guess the part that still isn't being addressed is:

Would any of you be upset that you spent the time and money to enter a BJCP Competition and NONE of the judges feedback forms were from a certified judge??
I'm sorry, but I am a little upset about that. I think that is a little misleading from an Competition Organizing standpoint. I just think that I would value these opinions a little more.

It's my fault for assuming that BJCP Sanctioned meant "official" BJCP judges would be doing the tasting which I don't think was that outrageous of an assumption for me to make.
I guess in my mind, now it doesn't mean much to me to see that a competition is BJCP Sanctioned, because I guess anyone could be doing the judging.

I'm curious to hear from a few more of you on if this is common at most sanctioned Comps???

 

[FlyGuy]

See my post above -- I suspect you missed it while you were drafting your last reply.

 

[Lodovico]

Sorry to hear about your discouraging results. It sounds like you had a bad judging experience, but also that you may have had some unrealistic expectations.



No, not at all. That's a big misconception. Getting sanctioning just means you will follow the basic rules of competitions advocated by the BJCP. They do not require that such competitions use BJCP judges.

Homebrew competitions are a lot like homebrew retailers. Some shops are good and some are bad. You have to figure out which are the good ones (where you can learn from the staff) and which are the bad ones (where you will take any advice with a grain of salt, or avoid them entirely).

Ask around here and find out which competitions have the best reputations (just like one might do for an LHBS). Those are the competitions to enter.

Wow. Good to know. So you could have any Tom, Dick, or Harry judging your beer. This is surprising to me and also quite disappointing.

Had I realized this, I wouldn't have even bothered entering them. I was under the impression that there would be at least a couple BJCP judges at a sanctioned event.

Good to know before I wasted the money sending them to the next few that I had planned. Thanks!

 

[FlyGuy]

Wow. Good to know. So you could have any Tom, Dick, or Harry judging your beer. This is surprising to me and also quite disappointing.

Yes, it is up to the competition organizer to gather good judges, not the Beer Judge Certification Program.

The contact information for the competition organizer is listed for every BJCP-sanctioned competition. It is common to have people email them and ask questions, like what the breakdown of judges will be. You want the MAJORITY to be BJCP Recognized, at the least, with a healthy mix of Certified-, National-, and perhaps even Master-level judges as well.

 

[Lodovico]

Yes, it is up to the competition organizer to gather good judges, not the Beer Judge Certification Program.

The contact information for the competition organizer is listed for every BJCP-sanctioned competition. It is common to have people email them and ask questions, like what the breakdown of judges will be. You want the MAJORITY to be BJCP Recognized, at the least, with a healthy mix of Certified-, National-, and perhaps even Master-level judges as well.

Yeah, 1 out of the 5 judges that did mine were Recognized and the rest were totally not ranked with BJCP. Bummer.

 

[Homercidal]

Quality of judges can vary as well as individual tastes. I saw your scores and thought, "Not too bad!" You could enter that same beer in another comp and get higher scores I think.

I got scores like that for one of my beers last year, and at another competition I scored second place. Difference being one was a competition of JUST that style, the other a competition of all styles together. I was one of only 2 IPAs being entered, and the other one got 1st place.

Of course I knew ahead of time that the judges were just beer guys. The only feedback I got from the second place finish was the brewmaster told me that it was a very clean beer. He didn't judge, but got to taste all entries. Yes written feedback would have been nice, but I'll take the medal, and shirt, and hat and goofy grin over the scoresheet this time.

I guess it comes down to persistent remarks. If you keep getting the same remarks, you might want to look into it. Otherwise, just read the feedback and take it for what you think it's worth. Randy Mosher has a good write up on tasting beer for judging in his "Tasting Beer" book. Makes me wonder if I could even do it, let alone be good at it.