First cider - Lalvin EC 1118

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Skylark

Skylark

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Hi folks, thought I'd drop in and share my first cider experience. I got a gallon of local unpasteurized cider and plopped a can of concentrate in it to get the OG up to 1.074 IIRC. Hit it with 1 Campden tablet, and some nutrient (DAP/urea). After a day, dropped about .25g of Lalvin EC-1118, and kept the fermenter around 65-68 F. It went like gang-bangers, primary was over in less than a week. It's been sitting in secondary for another week, very still, no activity, and I just tasted it and measured the FG. It is at 1.000, smells pretty strong (calculated 9.5% ABV) and champagne-y, and doesn't have much sweetness or body from the sugar (so quite dry obviously). It also doesn't taste very tart or apple-y, which is a bit unfortunate I think. I'm going to let it sit another week and taste it again, and make sure the gravity doesn't drop any further. I think I will bottle it and refrigerate at that point if it is stable. I may try to bottle-carb a few bottles, perhaps with PET first to minimize risk of bombing (don't wanna piss off SWMBO by blowing up her fridge).

I'm going to my local brew shop tomorrow to pick up two more 1-gallon fermenters so I can try more experiments! I will also pick up an ale yeast (US-05 or WPL002) and a wine yeast (Red Star Cote des Blanc) to see how I like them. The cider season is almost over for the local orchards, so I'm also thinking of trying some crazy multi-fruit concoctions or spiced cider with whatever from-concentrate juices I find at the local supermarket. But that will wait until I use up the two gallons I froze. :D
 
1118 consumed ALL the available sugar, that's why you have no sweetness. I use 1118 all the time, but I usually add 3-4 lbs of sugar per gallon and even that will dry to .998-6 with that yeast. And no sweetness there either.
You can try to backsweeten, but 1118 is a GANGSTER of the yeast world, it could be difficult as it can handle up to 18% ABV before it will not convert any more sugar. Sorbate and chilled storage may allow sweetening without blowing your corks!
 
T_Baggins said:
1118 consumed ALL the available sugar, that's why you have no sweetness. I use 1118 all the time, but I usually add 3-4 lbs of sugar per gallon and even that will dry to .998-6 with that yeast. And no sweetness there either.
You can try to backsweeten, but 1118 is a GANGSTER of the yeast world, it could be difficult as it can handle up to 18% ABV before it will not convert any more sugar. Sorbate and chilled storage may allow sweetening without blowing your corks!
Click to expand...

I usually add 1 cup or 1 pound of sugar per pound and get 8-10% ABV.

What are you getting with 3-4 lbs of sugar per gallon?

I'm ready to start making cider with no added sugar.
 
You may want to add some acid blend to increase the tartness and perhaps some tannin. Adding some toasted oak will provide tannins, as will grape tannin and even brewed black tea.
 
Skylark said:
Hi folks, thought I'd drop in and share my first cider experience. I got a gallon of local unpasteurized cider and plopped a can of concentrate in it to get the OG up to 1.074 IIRC.
Click to expand...

That sounds really high for just fresh cider + apple juice concentrate. Did you add any sugar?

In any case, EC-1118-fermented cider will acquire more tart flavor after several months of aging, in my experience. It also carbonates beautifully, so I recommend doing several carbonated bottles.
 
A lot of it will depend on the apples used for the juice. Some apples seem to ferment out the flavor more than others.

To get more apple flavor you can add back more juice and then pasteurize so the yeast doesn't eat it all up and you don't have bombs. That will also add some sweetness.

I would also suggest trying Nottingham for one of your test batches. It seems to leave more apple flavor, although that on very limited tests, it is possible it was the apple type.
 
MarkKF said:
I usually add 1 cup or 1 pound of sugar per pound and get 8-10% ABV.

What are you getting with 3-4 lbs of sugar per gallon?

I'm ready to start making cider with no added sugar.
Click to expand...

I've got up to 17.5 maybe ...I averaged the ABV calc'd by gravity readings with vinometer readings.

No sugar is my latest approach.
 
I didn't put any sugar, just once 12oz can of concentrate into the juice.
The FG stabilized right at 1.000, so we bottled it after 2 weeks in secondary. At this point it tastes quite tart, and smells apple-y, and the champagne smell went away, which is good. I think my only complaint would be the dryness. I think backsweetening after pasteurization is a good idea for the next batch. Thanks for the tips!

PS: I have two new batches in the works, same idea but one with US-05 and one with Cote des Blanc. Unfortunately, I goofed up and used a store-bought cider that had sorbate for the Cote des Blanc batch, so I'm crossing my fingers that it starts.
 
I believe the "champagne" smell is from natural degassing. Like the way it tickles your nose to take a big whiff of primary fermentation...not necessarily a smell, but a "feel" inside the nose. I use cider that is flash pasteurized at the mill. I will begin to ferment on its own if left to room temps, so I hit it with camden for 24 hr just like anything else. As long as everything goes well during the rest of the process I have never pasteurized my self. Well, chemically I guess with camden and sorbate then maybe sweeten with the original juice. Be sure to dose it with ascorbic acid before bottling, will help prevent oxidation if ya plan to age it.
 
Here's a couple of shots of my first batch..well, these are actually wines, about 16%ABV on this one.

aplwine.jpg


aplglasss.jpg
 
Hmm, which do you think would be disturb the flavor least: pasteurizing with heat, or going the Campden/sorbate route?
Also, how much ascorbic acid is appropriate? I've never heard that suggested before, but it makes sense b/c it prevents oxidation of fresh fruit.

Edit: I also started a cheap-juice-based batch to foist on house-guests at Thanksgiving dinner. I got apple-cranberry juice from the supermarket. It was pasteurized, and has lots of additives but not preservatives, just flavor/color stuff. I added one can of FAJC and one cup of table sugar to one gallon of juice, plus 1/4tsp cinnamon and 4 or 5 whole cloves. I pitched EC-1118 and the fermentation was well under way after 24hrs. I took a sip and I think the amount of spices is just right. It tasted a bit prickly with carbonation, but still quite sweet. I don't have the hydrometer with me (keeping it at my g.f.'s abode with the other two ciders), so no gravity reading. My plan is to rack it after 1 week, then it will be in secondary for 1 week. Then on turkey day, I will backsweeten with juice and rack to wine bottles. Everything that isn't drunk that weekend (unlikely) will get pasteurized.

Edit #2: g.f. tells me that the Cote des Blanc batch (the one with the sorbated juice) has started to bubble after 36 hours. We rehydrated the yeast and used the entire packet on a single gallon, so that seems to have blasted through the preservative and gotten fermentation started.
 
Update:
I tried force-carbonating my first batch (the original dry EC-1118 batch) using my gf's sodastream machine. That work out pretty well, it helped to take the edge off the tartness. I think bottle-carbing will be in order for the next batches.

The Cote des Blanc batch had no activity in the airlock after a week, so we were worried that despite the over-pitching, the sorbate had doomed that batch. However, the gravity had fallen from 1.07-ish to 1.045, and there were bubbles and a smell of alcohol. When we put the lid back on the bucket, the airlock started bubbling. Must have been a leaky seal!

The US-05 has been bubbling along nicely the whole time.

The apple-cranberry-spice from-concentrate batch with EC-1118 is finally slowing down. It's going at 4 bubbles/minute vs a peak of 8-10. I'd like to rack it soon, gotta borrow the autosiphon from my gf's place. It's still sweet-ish, certainly a ways to go till 1.000 for that yeast. I'll let it go all the way and backsweeten with more concentrate after safe-ing it with k-meta and k-sorbate.
 
Update:

The US-05 batch (quality cider + 1 can FAJC) is slowing down, time to rack it to secondary ASAP.

The Cote des Blanc (store cider with sorbate + 1 can FAJC) is still puttering along.

Picture attached: I just racked the spiced apple-cranberry batch (EC-1118), activity was down to about 1 bubble/minute from a peak of 10 bubbles/minute. I got a final SG reading on it: 1.000, pretty standard for that yeast it looks like. The spice is about right (1/4 teaspoon ground cinnamon, 6 whole cloves in 1 gallon of cider). There was a small amount of stevia and other goofy things in the juice I started with, and this brew does taste a bit sweeter than the 1st batch I made with good cider and EC-1118, which also came out at 1.000. I may not bother back-sweetening as I had planned.

IMG_2772.jpg
 
Half of my cider this year was S-04. I was happy how it went. Smells and tastes good. Gotta wait til spring to see how it comes out. Patience!
 
I've used EC-1118 and this past summer, I have started using S-04 and I've got a batch on with S-05... I'll bottle it on Sunday. I made a beer with T-58.... A Belgian dry yeast. My Next 3 gallons will use that yeast.
So far, S-04 is my fave. Good taste and such.
 
Update:
There are only three bottles of my original batch left! :( good thing there are more in the pipeline!

The spiced apple-cranberry cider is continuing to bubble a bit in secondary, but very slowly. Unfortunately, I discovered that I can't fit my 1g bottle into the refrigerator due to all my roommate's food. So I will need to apply sorbate & sulphite without the benefit of stopping the fermentation first. I just applied 1/2 a campden tablet, per this thread.
I have the sorbate in hand, and will add it later.

We tasted the Cotes des Blanc batch that has been gnawing away in the sorbate-laced cider. It's fallen to SG of 1.02-ish now, but it's still moving slowly. There's some kind of 'off'-flavor to it :( I'm afraid it may be due to the sorbate and not to the yeast. I'll have to try the Cote des Blanc again sometime with good, sorbate-free cider. OTOH, maybe this batch will improve after it ages?

The US-05 batch has been racked to secondary after a week and tastes pretty good. It is around 1.006 I think, and had plenty of apple flavor, especially when compared to the EC-1118 batch at that same stage. I think this is a sign to move away from champagne yeasts and toward ale yeasts.

I started a second Cote des Blanc batch with sorbate-laced cider, before I discovered the 'off'-flavor in the first batch of this kind. My intention had been to add 1lb of frozen chopped rhubarb that I had left from the summer. I bought a mesh bag to steep it with, but I made a mistake here: I left it for ~5 minutes in an IoStar sanitizing solution, and it turned weird colors and stank of chemicals! I'm hoping this dissipates over time, but I wasn't about to put that in my cider. So I may have saved the rhubarb from being wasted though.

I have a packet of S-04 sitting in the fridge, we may put it in the last of the good cider that we froze.

Well, I am certainly learning alot! :cross:
 
I just racked the second batch of sorbate-laced cider with Cote des Blanc. I don't like the taste on this one either. Unfortunately, since I've only tried that particular yeast with cider that has sorbate, I can't tell which one is the problem. I'll have to try the yeast one more time with different juice, to give it a fair shake.

I kept all the spiced apple-cranberry cider in the fridge b/c I didn't add the sorbate after all. 3 bottles consumed, two left. It's pretty good, but most folks think it's a bit too tart. It could use some backsweetening for sure.

The US-05 batch with good local cider has been bottled, with a bit of frozen concentrated added for priming. (SWMBO liked the results of our SodaStream carbonation experiment on our very first original batch.) Carbonation is increasing slowly. We will probably just refrigerate it when it gets sparkly enough.

We started a batch with the last of the good local cider and S-04, again with 12 oz of frozen concentrate (OG ~1.06 or 1.07). Just to muck things up, SWMBO decreed that this one also got a teaspoon of home-made vanilla liqueur.

I'm doing experiments in the direction of apfelwein now too.

1) I started with 1gal Shurfine apple juice (from concentrate), and added 3x12oz cans of Langers FAJC, and EC-1118. OG was 1.092; After 9 days, it is down to 1.010, and it tastes tart and strong but good.

2)I bought some Knudsen's "organic apple ???". It's supposed to be cider, but it tastes and looks like they just blended some applesauce into reconstituted juice. At least they came in 3qt glass jugs. :D I combined two of them with 1.5 C table sugar (as simple syrup), and pitched US-05. OG 1.070. My goal is to split the batch when I rack to secondary, putting some rhubarb in one batch. The other I might add cranberries, or just try it plain.
 
If you have a Krogers near you, see if they carry the Santa Cruz brand. It's called "organic apple juice" but it's them being fancy, this stuff is basically unfiltered cider (comes with a "shake before opening" label :p ). It's what my next batch is using.
 
I am giving up on the sorbate-laced cider that I pitched Cote des Blanc into. It tastes gross and it still hasn't cleared a bit after a month.

The spiced cranberry-apple cider has been sitting in the refrigerator for two weeks or so, and has completely cleared, no haze, beautiful orange/red tint. I can still smell the sulfur smell from the 1/2 campden tablet I put in when bottling, but the taste is fine.

The carbonation of the US-05 batch is progressing. It may be time to chill & serve soon.

The apfelwein from concentrate is already in secondary, starting to clear. It is at 1.006, pretty tart & tastes like champagne. It's going to need some help to taste good, though; 1118 seems to produce the same flavor no matter the starting ingredients. Not sure if I want to go for sweet or for sparkling.

The Knudsen's apfelwein is still sweet at 1.035, not much flavor. I think that adding fruit (cranberries/rhubarb) when I split the batch at secondary is going to improve it substantially.

Still have 3 bottles of the original batch of EC-1118 cider in the fridge, saving it for an old friend to taste.
 
I started a new 1 gallon batch on 12-08-2014. I poured out 16 ounces of the juice, and added back 12oz FAJC to replace it and leave a little head space. My O.G. was 1.060, and today's F.G was 1.004. 7%ABV it says. I wonder what the F.G will be in 7 or 8 days after I have added another 12oz can of FAJC? I tasted a small sample, it was slightly carbonated and rather dry, but definitely tasted like apples. Today's can of FAJC will probably be fermented by this weekend, so I will hydro a jug sample and keep you guys posted with the numbers before adding the third can of FAJC.
 
Updates:

The cranberry apple cider isn't too bad, although it could benefit from backsweetening. The rhubarb flavor in the other half-batch really didn't mesh well with the ale yeast (but I have been having problems with off-flavors in the US-05 batches anyways).

I've done a few more batches of Cote des Blanc apple cider: one with concentrate and one with sugar. The sugar one I halted at 1.015 with sorbate, and it's a bit too sweet (tastes a bit light, like honey, to me). The concentrate version was much better. I'm also running one with apple + white grape juice concentrate. I'm going to try to get a sweet, sparkling cider from this batch by chilling it, adding sorbate (which I hope will not drive off too much of the carbonation if the cider is chilled) and then bottling cold (ie, chill the bottles and the siphon too). I will let you know how this works.

I've also produced some lemon-wine using EC-1118 and some grapefruit wine using Cote des Blanc. The lemonade had 2 cans of frozen lemonade & 3 cups sugar, plus yeast nutrient, in one gallon. It's pretty good at 1.009 but not outstanding. The grapefruit wine was 1/2 gal store-bought juice fortified with 12 oz frozen concentrate & 1 C sugar, plus yeast nutrient, and it brewed much faster than the lemon wine and was a big hit with my friends, even though it was pretty dry (1.002). It tastes kind of like a margarita! :D

I've also got a banana wine going, and some of Yooper's easy ginger beer.
 
Updates:

The banana wine was a big failure, I used S-33 Trappist Ale yeast in hopes of enhancing the banana flavor... turns out that yeast produces a *sour* beer, which was awful. I poured it down the drain :( oh well, only one gallon

Cote des Blanc is now my go-to cider yeast so far. EC-1118 makes really sour-apple flavored cider, which tends not to go well with most people's palates, although I like it alot myself.

One of my biggest hits has been apple juice plus frozen Welch's grape juice concentrate brewed with Cote des Blanc. I stopped it & bottled at 1.015, adding 1/2 tsp sorbate dissolved in 1/4 C water before bottling, but not mixing too hard, to preserve carbonation. I put the bottles in the fridge to ward off explosions anyway. It has retained its sweetness and slight carbonation, and is a great flavor combo. It was really easy too -- I brewed it in the original plastic bottle I bought it in, and then just stuck the bottle in the fridge before adding the sorbate.

I also made a really good pumpkin-apple spiced cider.

I am also trying a super-simple graf: store-bought juice and Munton's plain light dry malt extract (DME). It's not done, but the flavor is pretty good so far (although it wasn't too good at first, don't judge the wort on its flavor). I'm using the Cider House Select cider yeast for this batch.

Speaking of which, I've also tried a plain cider batch with the Cider House Select cider yeast. It produces a great cider-y nose, but with storebought juice the flavor isn't there to back up the smell. I feel like it needs to be backsweetened with fresh, real cider, and maybe even something to enhance the mouthfeel.
 
I think I was doing the graff wrong: I just mixed the DME powder into the juice and then started fermenting, no boiling of the DME. The graff turned out very sour, most people disliked it. I should follow the instructions next time, haha.

A cool trick I learned from reading the page at Sociable Brewing in Minn. MN: cheap juice often only contains sweet and sour apples, but no bitter. In order to get the tannins you want, you can hop, or you can add brown sugar or molasses. I tried adding small amounts of black strap molasses (it's thick & black like used motor oil, and extremely bitter) to a glass of finished cider, and it improves the taste alot. I'm going to have to see how much I need for a gallon of cider next.

I'm working on a cider with wheat beer yeast: WB-06 dry yeast. Used Costco-brand cider, which is pretty decent and quite cheap.
 
The wheat beer yeast worked out great! The cider stayed cloudy, even after weeks in the fridge. I accidentally overcarbonated that batch though with too much priming sugar, so it was really fizzy.

I never did a proper experiment with the molasses unfortunately. I did make a gallon with 12 oz frozen white grape juice 'cocktail' concentrate added, plus molasses, but I didn't record how much molasses I put it, I just kept adding it til it tasted about right. I took the whole thing to party while it was still not quite fermented dry so I didn't get to see what it was like after that.
 
Anyone compare different store brand ciders? I'm going for a completely dry cider, so 1118 is my first choice, but I want that tartness without the sourness from acid blend. Tannins would be OK but I want any Apple flavor I can keep, so I think the brand/juice will be most important
 
Musselmans and Costco apple juice appear to be nearly identical with one exception. The Kirkland/Costco apple juice has no Vitamin C added. The jugs are identical and the size/shape of the label is also.

Im not really a fan of the 1118 for cider unless you are going more for a apple wine. I really like the Wyeast 4766 sofar if you are doing batches of 3-5 gallons. Its far too expensive for a 1 gallon batch.
 
Okay, so I forgot to update in a timely manner. The equivalent O.G. got very close to 1.100 after adding more FAJC in multiple stages. IMHO, adding FAJC not only adds fermentables, but it does add some of that fresh apple "bite" to the cider. I am now using Irish Ale yeast 1084 (?) for my current batch of ciders, and am very happy with the results. I ferment low and slow yes it takes a while but that is okay as I can only put just so many bottles in my freezer at one time to make applejack with. I have made a few different batches of "White Grape Peach" hard cider and the flavor is amazing using 1084 yeast. To me the trick to making great applejack is to not let the juice ferment out dry before putting in the freezer and then there will be a tiny bit more sweetness going into the bottle to age.

My apple tree should have fruit this year, my peach tree should have fruit this year and the next-door neighbors apricot tree which was also covered in blossoms should provide some fruit on my side of the fence. There are too many to count fruit trees in my neighborhood, and most of the owners let the critters get it instead of letting someone will to do the work glean the fruit.
 
Yum, those sound great!

Yeah, in my experience the EC-1118 tastes best if you want dry and very sparkling cider, essentially apple champagne. I like the apple/white grape combo if I am using cheap apple juice, because the grape seems to add some complexity that apple juice from concentrate just doesn't have.
 
So I know the last post was back in 2016, but im hoping someone will read this and give me some pointers. I just starte dmy first few batches of cider and used ec-1118 for one of them. I do enjoy a dry cider but also want a little sweetness to it. How long would you guys recommend keeping it in secondary? I planned on keeping it simple and putting a cinnamon stick in for some extra flavor. and iv also been reading about adding apple concentrate to help with carbonation and sweetness. Would you advise to add the concentrate on bottling date or when I rack into secondary ?

Also I read an awesome post about bottle pasteurization (stove top) and thought about giving that a go as well. I know I gatta be careful about bottle bombs, so I thought that the bottle pasteurization would obviously prevent those by taking care of the yeasts and allowing the sugar or concentrate I added to keep the sweetness..

any thoughts, opinions? im new to this forum but absolutely loving all the information on this thing. Everyone seems really helpful.
 
Hiya Bryceshu and welcome. Strikes me that brewers (those who make beer) love heat and so they love to add heat (pasteurize) anything that grows whereas wine makers tend to avoid cooking fruit because of the flavors cooked fruit exhibit. Best to allow the yeast to fully ferment any sugar if you are really making cider (what's the ABV of cider 5 -6 % ABV?) and then stabilizing with two chemicals - K-meta and K-sorbate and then adding whatever sweetness you are looking for. After stabilization any yeast lurking will not be able to ferment any fermentable sugar. Adding heat to sealed bottles saturated with CO2 is a real recipe for bottle bombs... but your experience may be different. :confused:;)
 
Bryceshu said:
So I know the last post was back in 2016, but im hoping someone will read this and give me some pointers. I just starte dmy first few batches of cider and used ec-1118 for one of them. I do enjoy a dry cider but also want a little sweetness to it. How long would you guys recommend keeping it in secondary? I planned on keeping it simple and putting a cinnamon stick in for some extra flavor. and iv also been reading about adding apple concentrate to help with carbonation and sweetness. Would you advise to add the concentrate on bottling date or when I rack into secondary ?

Also I read an awesome post about bottle pasteurization (stove top) and thought about giving that a go as well. I know I gatta be careful about bottle bombs, so I thought that the bottle pasteurization would obviously prevent those by taking care of the yeasts and allowing the sugar or concentrate I added to keep the sweetness..

any thoughts, opinions? im new to this forum but absolutely loving all the information on this thing. Everyone seems really helpful.
Click to expand...

I've had my best results using anything but EC1118 or Premier Cuvee (I think they are the same thing.) Cote des Blancs is good, and so are AW4 and S-33, but all three are quite different. CdB is probably my favorite.

At this point, I think your best bet is to assume the cider will be way too dry, but that is easily remedied by adding a little simple syrup at serving time. Or muddle a sugar cube or packet of Splenda in the bottom of your glass with just a little of the pour, then add the rest after it's mostly dissolved. It only takes a little sweetness for the apple character to come back.
 
Below is the cider w ec1118 Iv got going. The pic is two days after racking. When I racked I also topped it off with apple concentrate. Although there is absolutely no sign of yeast life. So do you think it safe to say it fermented out completely? Starts in primary May 20th and racked June 2nd..

upload_2018-6-4_19-1-8.jpeg



And here is everything Iv got goin on right now. Four ciders and a cyser in the back to the left of the 3 gallon carboy. The two middle 1 gallon jugs I just started June 2nd with safale-04 and tried some new things with those for primary..

upload_2018-6-4_18-58-44.jpeg
 

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EC-1118 is still in there and can wake up.
Take another gravity reading.
If the ABV isn't around the 18% mark, it's not done/finished.

ALSO......
IMHO, you have too much headspace.
You can sani some glass marbles to take up some space to eliminate that head space to avoid oxidation and potential infections.

Good luck.
 
papz said:
EC-1118 is still in there and can wake up.
Take another gravity reading.
If the ABV isn't around the 18% mark, it's not done/finished.

ALSO......
IMHO, you have too much headspace.
You can sani some glass marbles to take up some space to eliminate that head space to avoid oxidation and potential infections.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

Hey, Thanks for the tips. I will definitely keep more head space next time around. I don't have any marbles but thats a great idea. I will have to find some just incase.

The one with the EC-1118 turned out alright, i ended up bottling, carbonated it and kept them in the fridge, most are gone by now. I added some cinnamon to it and didn't really like how it came out. It tasted a lot better as a jack though.

the 3 gallon cider i had going turned out pretty decent with the Mangrove M02 yeast. I bottle carbonated those really well. Mostly everyone who has tasted it has really enjoyed the taste, except my wife who says its a little too much on the sour tart side (but she's picky)..

Going to bottle the 2 gallons of s04 next week. Iv also got a gallon of cyser that i need to rack and about to make another 3 gallon cyser.. probably make most of that into jack though..
 
This is good thread with lots of good info. I've attempted to gather some good cidermaking information into my site... check out the recipe page for several good recipes to try!

-Andrew G
diyHardCider.com
 

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