First cider attempt is a flop

[sleepylight]

I probably should have asked for help before jumping in, but I appear to made 5 gallons of undrinkable vinegary smelling cider. I took the advice from one of the sticky threads in this forum and went with 5 gallons of preservative-free pasteurized cider plus nottingham yeast. I let the mix ferment in a sealed bucket I normally use for beer for 2 weeks while I was out of town. Upon returning I popped it open and racked into a carboy to let it clarify.

After cracking the lid some problems became apparent. First this absolutely reeks of vinegar. To the point where I can't get past the smell to try and take a sip. Second, I think I blew way past the alcohol content I was looking for. I started at 1.05 and ended at 0.9 or 0.85, which I believe to be about 20%.

So, I figure I can solve the ABV issue by keeping an eye on it and racking earlier, but I don't know why everything got sour. I would greatly appreciate any advice, and I'm happy to add details if I left something out.

Thanks!

 

[CreamyGoodness]

Id be interested in knowing if this was in fact high quality cider vinegar. "This is either a horrible burger, or a fantastic meatloaf."

 

[rhamilton]

Make salad dressing?

 

[douggefreshvt]

Happened to me too. I've read some other threads here within the last day or two. The common reply to the vinegar is either too much oxidation or bacterial infection or both.

Did you bring the cider up to 185F to kill any bacteria or pour directly into the primary from the bottle? That could be the difference. I know pasteurization should kill everything but why chance it.

Just don't let it boil if you care about clarity. Fruit pectin sets after boiling which will give you very cloudy end product.

 

[motobrewer]

sounds like an infection. i doubt notty would get down that far on its own.

i've used notty on store bought juice and it took roughly 8 days to get down to 1.015 (from 1.055), at which point i cold-crashed and racked to stop it from going any farther. pretty decent.

 

[BrokenBarnBrewers]

I made my first batch this weekend and jumped in feet first with 5 gallons too. I took one of the simplest recipes I could find; 5 gallons cider with no preservatives, 5 lbs sugar and I used Lalvin D47 yeast. It is doing a slow bubble in the carboy and when I get close enough to it I can smell apple. I hope it tastes as good as it smells when it is ready.

TT

 

[Homercidal]

Check your sanitation. If you used fresh apple cider, you might have needed to add some capden tablets to kill the bacteria before pitching yeast?

 

[david_42]

I also suspect your FG reading is wrong, you should check it. 0.995 is much more likely and that would put the ABV around 7%.

As far as the smell goes, I'd give the batch 4-5 months in a secondary. Freshly fermented cider tends to be harsh.

 

[xjmox14x]

What everyone else said. I'm no expert as my first two batches are currently fermenting, but there's definitely got to be something wrong with the hydrometer reading. I've never heard of any ale yeast reaching 0.900-0.850 SG. I'm not even sure if that's chemically possible without distilling as 100% pure ethanol has a SG of 0.787.

That doesn't mean you don't have an infection though, which could contribute to the low FG and vinegar smell/taste.

 

[motobrewer]

did you degas the sample?

 

[Homercidal]

The point is that the Ale Yeast is maybe not what cause the gravity to go so low. Bacteria do not stop when yeast do. If it's infected (and if it smells like a lot of vinegar, it probably is) then the gravity will keep going down until the bacteria run out of food.

 

[frydogbrews]

if you just used apple juice, there's pretty much no way you could get that high an ABV. even the sweetest of the sweet apples would top out at 10% or so. i've personally never seen juice with potential alcohol high than 9% on its own.

i actually thinking this was hydrogen sulfide. fermenting apple juice will toss this out every so often, it's why de-gassing ciders is fairly important . i do it every couple of days during the ferment. once that hydrogen sulfide is in suspension, if will eventually convert to a much more stubborn chemical. (if that happens, ballgames over)

you could have picked up acetobacter contamination, but it shouldn't have happened in two weeks, especially with unfermented juice. i've made apple cider vinegar (on purpose and on accident) and it always takes longer than that.

 

[dinnerstick]

agree with above, i have tried (successfully) to make vinegar intentionally, by adding acetobacter mother to some totally oxidized cider, and even that takes a long time to turn to vinegar; months. i really doubt you found a new way to make it in a week or two in an anoxic carboy, but if so then patent it

 

[Homercidal]

agree with above, i have tried (successfully) to make vinegar intentionally, by adding acetobacter mother to some totally oxidized cider, and even that takes a long time to turn to vinegar; months. i really doubt you found a new way to make it in a week or two in an anoxic carboy, but if so then patent it

Didn't notice the timeframe. Yes, it really should take much longer to make a vinegar I think. You might be tasting some initial souring, but you might want to hold off on dumping it for now. There is something else wrong.

And you won't get 20% alcohol either, but I didn't want to say that before, because it's irrelevant.

I've fermented apple cider before using plain beer yeast and no treatment for bacteria. In general, it's pretty safe if you are fairly clean.

 

[sleepylight]

Happened to me too. I've read some other threads here within the last day or two. The common reply to the vinegar is either too much oxidation or bacterial infection or both.

Did you bring the cider up to 185F to kill any bacteria or pour directly into the primary from the bottle? That could be the difference. I know pasteurization should kill everything but why chance it.

Just don't let it boil if you care about clarity. Fruit pectin sets after boiling which will give you very cloudy end product.

No, I didn't boil it. Since it was already pasteurized, I figured I'd be fine. Maybe not.

If it turns out that this can't be saved, I'll cook it at 185 next time.

 

[sleepylight]

if you just used apple juice, there's pretty much no way you could get that high an ABV. even the sweetest of the sweet apples would top out at 10% or so. i've personally never seen juice with potential alcohol high than 9% on its own.

i actually thinking this was hydrogen sulfide. fermenting apple juice will toss this out every so often, it's why de-gassing ciders is fairly important . i do it every couple of days during the ferment. once that hydrogen sulfide is in suspension, if will eventually convert to a much more stubborn chemical. (if that happens, ballgames over)

you could have picked up acetobacter contamination, but it shouldn't have happened in two weeks, especially with unfermented juice. i've made apple cider vinegar (on purpose and on accident) and it always takes longer than that.

Ok, that's good to know. I couldn't believe what I was seeing on the hydrometer. It seemed impossible to ferment to that kind of alcohol content, so I'm glad to hear it must be something else.

I will try degassing tonight. I'm pretty sure I have the tool for that. Can you describe what hydrogen sulfide smells like? I'd like to determine whether or not this is just funk from fermentation, or if I'm just growing bacteria.

Thanks!

 

[sleepylight]

So, just as a general rule of thumb, how long should I let cider ferment in primary, and how long should I let it age before kegging/bottling?

 

[frydogbrews]

Ok, that's good to know. I couldn't believe what I was seeing on the hydrometer. It seemed impossible to ferment to that kind of alcohol content, so I'm glad to hear it must be something else.

I will try degassing tonight. I'm pretty sure I have the tool for that. Can you describe what hydrogen sulfide smells like? I'd like to determine whether or not this is just funk from fermentation, or if I'm just growing bacteria.

Thanks!

the perception of hydrogen sulfide is different things to different people, it's a genetic thing really. many people smell rotten eggs, some smell wet dog, i just smell sulfur. people also notice it in varying degrees. i am not that sensitive to it, my wife is very sensitive. smells described the smell as "gross funk"

when i de-gas, i just stir with my big plastic (sanitized) spoon. generally i slosh it around a little also. rack off before you do this so you don't kick up anything off the bottom. also, some will totally disagree with stirring at this point because of oxidation issues. they have a point and you will have to make that decision on your own. i will say i have never had oxidation problems.

you should never ever have to heat clear, pasturized juice you buy in sealed jugs from the store.

 

[frydogbrews]

So, just as a general rule of thumb, how long should I let cider ferment in primary, and how long should I let it age before kegging/bottling?

again, this depends on taste, here is what i do.
there are two categories

store bought, pasturized, clear juice:
ferment 2 weeks
secondary one month
get drunk

farm bought, seasonal, cloudy juice (what people call real apple cider)

ferment 2-5 weeks
secondary 2-8 months
get drunk

these are for straight fermented apple juice, no chaptilazation. add some honey or something and these numbers change.

 

[sleepylight]

again, this depends on taste, here is what i do.
there are two categories

store bought, pasturized, clear juice:
ferment 2 weeks
secondary one month
get drunk

farm bought, seasonal, cloudy juice (what people call real apple cider)

ferment 2-5 weeks
secondary 2-8 months
get drunk

these are for straight fermented apple juice, no chaptilazation. add some honey or something and these numbers change.

Ah, excellent! Thank you. I'm fermenting the farm bought cloudy juice type, so I'm best off degassing and putting the carboy aside for some months. Maybe I'll get some clear store bought juice and make up some more cider to tide me over in the short term.

Then get drunk.

Thanks!!!

 

[motobrewer]

ah, so people do degas ciders during primary, like meads....

hmm...

 

[CreamyGoodness]

I primarily degas between 11pm and 7am. Oh, you meant the cider. Sorry I got nothin.

 

[SenorPepe]

chaptalization, eh? Learn something new every day.

 

[dinnerstick]

there's a lot of degassing going on in this thread.... i never degas my cider, by the time they have aged a few months they have done the job for me. but it's pretty easy to do without oxygenating, just don't splash the surface when you stir. also i never ever get drunk
why wood eye

 

[frydogbrews]

there's a lot of degassing going on in this thread.... i never degas my cider, by the time they have aged a few months they have done the job for me. but it's pretty easy to do without oxygenating, just don't splash the surface when you stir. also i never ever get drunk
why wood eye

i started de-gassing after a batch had hydrogen sulfide that was in there so damn long it converted to that other chemical (dihydrogen sulfide?, something with di in it).
anyway, i had to dump a whole batch because of it. now i de-gas.

my first attempt at cider ever story (also titled why i don't worry about oxydation)
after a few days of fermenting, i noticed the sulfur smell. didn't know it was common during cider ferment. so, naturally, i flipped out! called a buddy who owns a winery and he said "well, that usually means your cider is stressed, oxygenate it" so i cracked open the lid (ferment was actually done, but i didn't know that then) and stirred, splashed, kicked, and sloshed that liquid like nobody's business. smell went away. cider tasted great. later i learned that what i had done is textbok terrible idea. i don't de-gas anywhere near as aggresivly as i did that time. just a gentle stir and a little aeration during ferment. works for me.