First Brew

[KegerRaider]

Wow. I just wanna say thanks for all the responses! I think that debate is healthy and helps me to learn. Thanks for welcoming me to the forums.

I first want to make sure that i did not say that AHS recipe called for 7 days in the bottle. My recipe says 3 weeks in the bottle. And when I was there, I never got the idea that they were only trying to upsell me. I wish I remember his name, but he was very helpful and willing to listen and answer my noob questions. I will definitely be back in there. More than likely ill be there tomorrow to buy my next recipe kit. :rockin:

And i want to say, Forrest don't worry. If this beer does not turn out the greatest or even messed up, I will know for sure that it is some mistake that i made and not your recipe.

Like i said, i really appreciate all the help from everyone. All this debate has actually made me change my mind completely. I think now, I am going to follow the instructions with this brew. And do 1 week (or two days after terminal gravity) and then 1 week in the secondary. Then 3 weeks in the bottles. And when i get this one in the secondary, Ill start another recipe kit in the primary that i will leave there for the 3 to 4 weeks and see the difference myself.

 

[BrewJob87]

Good thread.. Answered a few questions of mine, thanks..

 

[kh54s10]

The 2 days past terminal gravity is the key. But, 5 days? I pitch proper starters and have fermentation start within hours and still have a healthy krausen after 7-10 days. Maybe the gravity was stable?? I'll never know because I did not disturb it for 3 weeks. I also gave up doing secondaries and my beer is as good or better than when I did secondaries.

I can see problems with new brewers taking dozens of gravity samples to make sure the terminal gravity was reached. I do not know about AHS directions but the ones that I have read elsewhere were spot on in some parts and extremely vague in others.

My first was a Northern Brewer Irish Red Ale extract kit. The directions said to chill the wort to 100 degrees as fast as possible. Add cold water to top off to 5 gallons.
Add yeast once the wort is 78 degrees or lower. Move the fermenter to a warm, dark, quiet spot until fermentation begins. I had looked at the yeasts range but didn't really get that until the next day when my temperatures were near 80 degrees. I re read the directions, realized that the temperature was too high. To NB's credit I used their online chat and got help immediately. The advise was to primary 2 weeks, secondary 2-3 weeks then bottle condition for 2-3 weeks. The beer turned out very good, but was it to style? I didn't have a basis to make that comparison.

That said, with better instructions, as far as temperature in this instance, I would not have had the problem in the first place.

Also NB's instructions are among the best that I have seen.

 

[copyright1997]

KegerRaider -
Welcome to brewing! Here's some tips I've learned over the past 6 months, when I returned to brewing after a very long hiatus:
1. A hydrometer is your friend. It is a scientific way of telling you where your batch is.
Edit: WAIT until you think it's done fermenting plus a few days before you take your first reading. (See #2 to help you do this.) The less you take the lid off the less chance of screwing up the batch from oxygen and/or bad things getting in your beer.
2. As SOON as you get your first batch out of the primary, do another one. The of the best things you can do to improve your batches is to make more and even more importantly having a over-flowing pipeline helps because then you have to let things sit because you have no kegs or bottles or whatever. When you finding yourself having to leave things in the primary longer because you have no secondaries or keeping it in the secondary longer because you have no bottles, your beers will magically improve.
3. Sanitation is critical and so much easier these days (than when I was brewing eons ago). If you don't have it, run out and buy either StarSan or Iodophor. I have both, mostly use StarSan as it is easier to see it working due to the foam (remember the foam is your friend).
4. I think the number one thing to quickly improve your batches is temperature control. Keeping the fermentation temperature UNDER CONTROL helps to improve the taste of your beer. (Also, remember that the temperature inside a primary (e.g. plastic bucket) can be considerably higher than the ambient temperature.) I have found my batches improved when I did this, and find I like to keep things at the lower end of the fermentation range.
5. I notice a lot of new brewers want to go crazy and come up with their own recipe's, or make super high ABV beers, or add all kinds of stuff to their batches. I think this is unwise (at least at first). I like to do scratch baking and rarely follow a recipe, except that I always follow the recipe (if at all possible) the FIRST time so that I have a control point, i.e. a known entity from which I can get creative (and from which I can compare whether being creative improved it or made it suck). So, I would recommend doing some kits or what I've tried to do is follow recipe's for various good commercial (craft) beers that I could buy and from which I could compare MY batch to the commercial beer. So, some of the brew's I've made include a blue moon clone, red hook esb clone, victory hop devil clone, Sierra Nevada Pale Ale clone, Mirror pond clone, Samuel Smith Nut Brown Ale clone.
6. If you brew a lot, you will strive to find ways to reduce cost. Some easy ways to do this:
a) Use dry yeast instead of liquid. If you are doing American Style Ale's or English Style Ales, S-05 and S-04 are fine. In fact they are easier as you can just sprinkle them onto your batch (big assumption here is that it is a medium starting gravity level, e.g. under 1.065 or so).
b) Wash/re-use yeast. You can easily go 3 generations without issue, assuming you are doing fairly frequent batches. Also, the resulting yeast cake from a batch can be used for multiple (2 to 3) next generation batches. So, one $4 packet of S-05 can generate 1*2*4*8 = 64 batches. What I tend to do is just go a couple of generations, e.g. 1*2*4 = 8 batches. 8 batches for $4 means your yeast cost is just about nothing.
c) Buy hops on sale/larger quantities. I've been able to find (on hbt) sales on hops where I paid well under $1/oz. Figure out what kinds of things you like, buy 1/2 or 1# and use a vacuum sealer to save the hops (in the freezer).

Hope this helps!

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

i just wanna make an update to the new brewers here. i was just at Midwest Supply getting the grains and hops for a beer my wife's brewing this weekend and i asked a couple of the employees there a few questions about the generic instructions that come in their, and others kits. to a man, each one agreed that those instructions are VERY general and geared to the new brewer. and that learning how YOUR brewhouse produces beer is key to learning how long to primary, secondary, etc. i've also talked extensively with an employee there on several occasions about brewing process, the use of a secondary vessel, pitch rates, how we get our beer clear, etc. and we both agree that a 2+ week primary produces a better, clearer, more conditioned beer than a one week or less primary.
i'm not trying to be argumentative, forrest, i'm just trying to protect some new brewers from misinformation. you and i both know that when your process is solid, and by that i mean well practiced, you can turn a brew round VERY quickly. i've gone grain to glass in 12 days, and i know many have done it faster. but that requires an understanding most new brewers don't yet have. not to mention a kegging setup and experience with blast carbing ,other things most new brewers don't have. if you disagree with me, or if that hurts your approach here on HBT, i'm sorry. but you know as well as i do that the general consensus here on HBT is what i'm talking about. new brewers, if you want to learn more about this debate, there a million and two threads here on the forum that you can search and read. three or four years ago, this was a hot debate and many old school brewers were hard fast in the methods being recommended by our AHS vendor rep. after a lot of trial, debate and discussion, it was realized that beer benefits fro some extra time (days or weeks, not hours) on the yeast. do the experiment for yourselves, i did when i first learned of this topic, split a batch, use the same yeast, ferment half according to instruction and half the way most of us here do. then you decide which way makes better beer for YOU. cause after all, you homebrew to make beer for you, not anyone else.

 

[Zak]

...

Like i said, i really appreciate all the help from everyone. All this debate has actually made me change my mind completely. I think now, I am going to follow the instructions with this brew. And do 1 week (or two days after terminal gravity) and then 1 week in the secondary. Then 3 weeks in the bottles. And when i get this one in the secondary, Ill start another recipe kit in the primary that i will leave there for the 3 to 4 weeks and see the difference myself.

Not for nothing, I but brew what you are going to brew and ask questions later. I'll admit I'm new to brewing, but my beer has gotten way better since I've started from themistakes I've been a party to

 

[Austinhomebrew]

I will agree that 2 weeks in the primary will be clearer and more conditioned thand one week. Simply because you are fermenting and what is suposed to happen in the seconday, all in the primary. It is more conditioned because it is 2 weeks old and not one. 2 weeks in the primary is virtually the same as a week in a primary and a week in the secondary. (assuming you are able to reach terminal gravity in a week). The beer should remain in the primary until terminal gravity is reached. If it takes two weeks then two weeks in the primary it is. (it shouldnt take 2 weeks).

I will contact some experts and see what they have to say It is good to have even more opinions. I will post what they have to say.

Forrest

 

[Jay1]

Wow, I'm blown away by the different ideas regaurding fermentation times. Until reading this thread I couldn't imagine leaving it in the primary more than two weeks. I was drinking my last batch in less than two weeks and it is damn good. The batch I have going now reached terminal gravity in 5 days and went to the secondary in 7.

I think the most important thing about your first batches is to approach it very scientifically. Take tons of notes that way you can look back on what you did and what kind of effect it had. Just learn the process and have fun! I honestly don't think its as hard as people make it seem.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

We dont differ on fermentation times. The yeast determines fermentation time. We differ in how long you should leave it in the primary after fermentation is finished I say a couple days and he says a couple weeks. Many people combine the primary and secondary functions in the first vessle.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

We dont differ on fermentation times. The yeast determines fermentation time. We differ in how long you should leave it in the primary after fermentation is finished I say a couple days and he says a couple weeks. Many people combine the primary and secondary functions in the first vessle.

agreed. the yeast will tell you when the beer is finished, the rest is conditioning time to let the brew mature. the reason many of us skip the transfer to secondary is to avoid the added risk of contamination and oxidation, albeit small, the risk increases ever time you transfer. many brewers say 'why take even a small risk when the beer will clear and age the same in primary'.
when i DO use a secondary vessel (see below) it's for post fermentation additions, which can be done in primary too, i still go two weeks in primary before racking over to another vessel.

the thread called 'to secondary or not... jamil z and john palmer weigh in' is a great read on this subject with a lot of great opinions (thats what they are) on both sides of the subject.

 

[MaxOut]

I'm a rookie AG brewer and have only brewed Lagers so take my opinion for what it is. Due to the low temps I ferment at my fermentation is never complete in less than two weeks. I choose not to secondary because I tried it side by side with the same recipes and time lines and was unable to tell the difference. All of my beers stay a minimum of 4 weeks in the primary and then to the keg. Sometimes the beers will sit in the keg for up to another month or so and seem to improve slightly. The ones that have lasted beyond that seem to level out and any other changes are very subtle. So for me and Lagers 8 weeks from grain to glass and it's perfect.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

I'm a rookie AG brewer and have only brewed Lagers so take my opinion for what it is. Due to the low temps I ferment at my fermentation is never complete in less than two weeks. I choose not to secondary because I tried it side by side with the same recipes and time lines and was unable to tell the difference. All of my beers stay a minimum of 4 weeks in the primary and then to the keg. Sometimes the beers will sit in the keg for up to another month or so and seem to improve slightly. The ones that have lasted beyond that seem to level out and any other changes are very subtle. So for me and Lagers 8 weeks from grain to glass and it's perfect.

lagers generally take a lot longer than ales to reach FG.

 

[gmcastil]

This has all been discussed before ad nauseum:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/secondary-not-john-palmer-jamil-zainasheff-weigh-176837/

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

This has all been discussed before ad nauseum:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/secondary-not-john-palmer-jamil-zainasheff-weigh-176837/

thus the reason i said for new brewers, or anyone not aware to check that thread out.

agreed. the yeast will tell you when the beer is finished, the rest is conditioning time to let the brew mature. the reason many of us skip the transfer to secondary is to avoid the added risk of contamination and oxidation, albeit small, the risk increases ever time you transfer. many brewers say 'why take even a small risk when the beer will clear and age the same in primary'.
when i DO use a secondary vessel (see below) it's for post fermentation additions, which can be done in primary too, i still go two weeks in primary before racking over to another vessel.

the thread called 'to secondary or not... jamil z and john palmer weigh in' is a great read on this subject with a lot of great opinions (thats what they are) on both sides of the subject.

wouldn't wanna be repetitive.

 

[mcaple1]

holy crap everyone...get off Forest's back...

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

holy crap everyone...get off Forest's back...

agreed. the yeast will tell you when the beer is finished, the rest is conditioning time to let the brew mature. the reason many of us skip the transfer to secondary is to avoid the added risk of contamination and oxidation, albeit small, the risk increases ever time you transfer. many brewers say 'why take even a small risk when the beer will clear and age the same in primary'.
when i DO use a secondary vessel (see below) it's for post fermentation additions, which can be done in primary too, i still go two weeks in primary before racking over to another vessel.

the thread called 'to secondary or not... jamil z and john palmer weigh in' is a great read on this subject with a lot of great opinions (thats what they are) on both sides of the subject.

i don't see how anyone's riding anyone else's back here. it's a debate between two methods brewers use, both accepted and debated all over these forums everyday. in fact, if you'd read the whole thread, you'd see where both sides of the debate accept the other's as an acceptable way to brew beer. as with any other topic where there's multiple opinions, the debate can get heated. i think it's quite helpful, as do others who've posted here (again, read the WHOLE thread) to see both sides of the story talked about by brewers who have seen one or both sides work in theory and in practical application. i myself find it extremely helpful to read a thread, or anything else for that matter, where EVERY side of the story is discussed 'ad nauseum' if you will. it allows one to compile all the facts, and opinions, and make an informed choice. if you're offended by a debate which is talked about every day on HBT, i apologize for your inconvenience, but maybe skip over the threads that bring this subject up on a daily basis.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

holy crap everyone...get off Forest's back...

Thanks, but it is all cool. Just a lively discussion.

Forrest

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Thanks, but it is all cool. Just a lively discussion.

Forrest

exactly!
forrest and i have differing method of reaching the same goal, great beer. i agree his method works, and i think i can say the same for him. we just differ on one simple thing. in fact, i'm one of the brewers that sees a good use for a secondary, and use one any time i'm adding something to a brew after FG is reached. we just disagree on if it's necessary, or a matter of preference/practice.

 

[KegerRaider]

I just wanna thank everyone again. A lot of great information in this thread and I have learned a lot.

Thanks NordeastBrewer77, i read that post and its a good one with a lot of info. And thanks for all your posts regarding the subject.

 

[mcaple1]

I agree....I just felt like Forest was being attacked for a second there...my bad. I honestly also tend to take the kit instructions with a grain of salt...although, I haven't used a kit in about 2 years now.