First brew on my HERMS system, issues of concern

[cacm2226]

Hello to all,

Wanted to post my first HERMS brew experience in order to trouble shoot some issues and de-stress.

I have been brewing for over 3 years and made the move to an electric HERMS 10 gallon system, electric control panel, 15 gallon HLT and BK, 16 gallon Mash Tun, counter flow chiller, dual pumps etc. A Kal and short circuit brewers clone more or less minus the larger vent hoods.

The brew that was made was a 5 gallon batch APA.

3 1/2 gallon mash in
fly sparge to follow to boil volume

Ill list the issues encountered for feed back from you guys.

1. when douging in, 3 gallons of the strike water was below the false bottom, leaving 1/2 a gallon or so above. mash consistency when doug in was like thick oatmeal and was able to be moistened. better consistency when mashing commenced. is this ok or normal?

2. when cooling via counter flow chiller and whirlpool arm, temperature drop was very nice and rapid until a clog was encountered somewhere between the BK and wort pump. During clean up and rinse, I noticed the wort pump wouldnt move water from the now clean BK containing hot water into the wort pump via hose and out said pump. The out side of the pump just spit a little bit of foam. Possible clog in the wort pump? Should I take the pump head off and inspect?

3. Due to the clog, the whirlpool didnt center the trub and hop debri, therefore it mostly went into the stainless conical.

4. I noticed in Kal's brew instructions on his web site, he dough's in at his set temp. Beer smith has me striking at a higher temp as previous brews and then it drops to set temp for mash time. Any pro or con for not striking higher than at mash set temp?

Also, Kal recommended that mash out was not always necessary going into fly sparge but beer smith still lists a mash out for 10 minutes and then into fly sparging. Any suggestions pro or con?

Other than dripping condensation from my vent hood of 350 cfm, those were my stressers.

Thank you to all who reply. sorry in advance for typos

chris

 

[Gameface]

What was your water to grain ratio? Yeah, I'd be concerned that 6/7ths of your water was not in contact with grain. What kettle/false bottom are you using? Anyway you could lower it?

Yeah if take the pump head off and see what's up.

I'd worry about the pump not pumping more than about break material.

From what Kal says it gets back up to temp fast enough for it not to matter. He also said starting higher would also work. Whatever you feel better about.

You can choose other mash profiles in beer smith. Or you can create your own. If you don't want to do a mash out pick a profile with no mash out.

Hope the next one goes better for you.

 

[cacm2226]

What was your water to grain ratio? Yeah, I'd be concerned that 6/7ths of your water was not in contact with grain. What kettle/false bottom are you using? Anyway you could lower it?

Yeah if take the pump head off and see what's up.

I'd worry about the pump not pumping more than about break material.

From what Kal says it gets back up to temp fast enough for it not to matter. He also said starting higher would also work. Whatever you feel better about.

You can choose other mash profiles in beer smith. Or you can create your own. If you don't want to do a mash out pick a profile with no mash out.

Hope the next one goes better for you.

the mash tun is a bayou classic 16 gallon kettle. the false bottom is from them as well and sits on a ledge that is built into the kettle at the 3 gallon mark. I considered doing 6 gallon batches since my conical is a 7 gallon cronical from ss brew tech

 

[lschiavo]

the mash tun is a bayou classic 16 gallon kettle. the false bottom is from them as well and sits on a ledge that is built into the kettle at the 3 gallon mark. I considered doing 6 gallon batches since my conical is a 7 gallon cronical from ss brew tech

It sounds like the MLT may be a bit oversided for doing smaller batches. I have never seen a false bottom design that leaves that kind of volume underneath. Do you have a picture of it?

 

[lschiavo]

is it this?

That doesn't look like it was designed by a brewer...at least for use as a MLT.

 

[lschiavo]

Something like this will sit right on the bottom of the kettle and the barb gets connected to your valve with some sort of tubing.

 

[cacm2226]

is it this?

That doesn't look like it was designed by a brewer...at least for use as a MLT.

that is the correct one that I have purchased. I currently use a pick up tube so changing to that particular false bottom would require refitting the bulk head.

 

[cacm2226]

Something like this will sit right on the bottom of the kettle and the barb gets connected to your valve with some sort of tubing.

I actually have a false bottom as pictured from my igloo mash tun from my old system. its smaller in circumference though.

 

[lschiavo]

IMO, you need to refit. It should not take much. A true false bottom (maybe modify what you already have), a barb on the end of your valve and a piece of tubing should do it. I did opt for a solid connection between the valve and false bottom because stirring can disconnect it...and it did once. I like where you are going though. Good luck.

 

[lschiavo]

I actually have a false bottom as pictured from my igloo mash tun from my old system. its smaller in circumference though.

The smaller size should not matter. I would rig it up before my next brew. It is better than three gallons under the false bottom.

 

[cacm2226]

The smaller size should not matter. I would rig it up before my next brew. It is better than three gallons under the false bottom.

Im going to refit with my old false bottom. Any suggestions on how to replace the tube with a solid connection. Old way was barb to barb with tubing. But your correct, I dont want it to disconnect while stirring. I would be using the false bottom that you pictured as an alternative. barb centered at false bottom.

 

[lschiavo]

Im going to refit with my old false bottom. Any suggestions on how to replace the tube with a solid connection. Old way was barb to barb with tubing. But your correct, I dont want it to disconnect while stirring. I would be using the false bottom that you pictured as an alternative. barb centered at false bottom.

In my old round cooler mash tun, I rigged up a pressure fit apparatus with copper pipe and fittings. It was much better than the original flexible tubing and never came loose with stirring. My new passion is bottom drain. It just makes too much sense for a MLT. That would take a bit of work to get there from where you are now. But, certainly not out of the question. Just some trial and error and one unsoldered copper fitting can give you a nice snug false bottom for now.

 

[cacm2226]

In my old round cooler mash tun, I rigged up a pressure fit apparatus with copper pipe and fittings. It was much better than the original flexible tubing and never came loose with stirring. My new passion is bottom drain. It just makes too much sense for a MLT. That would take a bit of work to get there from where you are now. But, certainly not out of the question. Just some trial and error and one unsoldered copper fitting can give you a nice snug false bottom for now.

Ill have to explore that. I went ahead and took apart the wort pump head assembly and discovered undissolved whole hop pellets stuck behind the propeller around the stem. It had clogged the in bound connection side. Long story short, I will for now on keep an eye on my brew buddy when it comes time to adding the hops at flame out........:cross:

 

[cacm2226]

In my old round cooler mash tun, I rigged up a pressure fit apparatus with copper pipe and fittings. It was much better than the flexible tubing and never came loose with stirring. My new passion is bottom drain. It just makes too much sense for a MLT. That would take a bit of work to get there from where you are now. But, certainly not out of the question. Just some trial and error and one unsoldered copper fitting can give you a nice snug false bottom for now.

I observed in your pictures the mash tun with the copper fittings. Were any of the soldered. You had mentioned using unsoldered fittings.

 

[lschiavo]

I observed in your pictures the mash tun with the copper fittings. Were any of the soldered. You had mentioned using unsoldered fittings.

What pictures? In my gallery? Post it up casue I forget. My old setup had ONE unsoldered fitting that I bent and forced into submission for my needs. Copper bends quite easily. That was just my way to solve the problem of disconnecting the drain tube from the false bottom.

 

[cacm2226]

What pictures? In my gallery? Post it up casue I forget. My old setup had ONE unsoldered fitting that I bent and forced into submission for my needs. Copper bends quite easily. That was just my way to solve the problem of disconnecting the drain tube from the false bottom.

yes, your gallery. I dont know how to post your gallery pic but it was the one with the copper fittings. Just brain storming and trying to figure how to hard line the connection instead of tubing. It would require some type of compression fitting on the bulk head but be able to disconnect at the false bottom

 

[lschiavo]

yes, your gallery. I dont know how to post your gallery pic but it was the one with the copper fittings. Just brain storming and trying to figure how to hard line the connection instead of tubing. It would require some type of compression fitting on the bulk head but be able to disconnect at the false bottom

It is hard to put into words. Get copper pipe connections on both ends first. Devise the fittings to connect your valve to your false bottom. Then figure out which fitting has to be loose in order to install/remove the false bottom. Solder the rest of them. A loose sweat fitting must have a smaller gap than a false bottom? That's what I did once upon a time anyway and it worked

 

[iijakii]

You could also try filling the deadspace under the false bottom so that so much water isn't in there. Marbles or stainless nuts and bolts or something. It'd definitely be better/easier just to sell your current setup and get smaller pots.

16g pots for 5g batches is ridiculous. I know everyone on here always chants the mantra of bigger is better, but it's really not. Many, maybe even most, stick with 5gal batches and pots over 10gal is not only an inconvenience, but a detriment.

 

[lschiavo]

You could also try filling the deadspace under the false bottom so that so much water isn't in there. Marbles or stainless nuts and bolts or something. It'd definitely be better/easier just to sell your current setup and get smaller pots.

16g pots for 5g batches is ridiculous. I know everyone on here always chants the mantra of bigger is better, but it's really not. Many, maybe even most, stick with 5gal batches and pots over 10gal is not only an inconvenience, but a detriment.

Where do you buy stainless nuts and bolts by the gallon? Kidding of course. Filling or eliminating that space is the priority.

It depends on your situation. I always brew with a friend and split the batches. 10 gallons worked split two ways. 10 gallons would work if I kept it all too because I know a lot of moochers.

The moral of the story: If you can brew 10 gallons on your rig, do it.

 

[BSD_Glass]

I use a domed false bottom like that in my BK. I use it with a standard dip tube. I took out the elbow barb fitting from the FB and built up stainless plumbing fittings that the dip tube fit tightly through. Turns out a camlock male and nut of appropriate size did the trick for me in this case..

this way you can keep your dip tube and use the new domed false bottom with a rigid connection..


Hope this helps.

BSD

 

[The_Bishop]

If you're going to fly sparge, you really need to have the whole bottom of the grain bed 'draining' or it will channel and screw with your efficiency.

 

[BadWolfBrewing]

16g pots for 5g batches is ridiculous. I know everyone on here always chants the mantra of bigger is better, but it's really not. Many, maybe even most, stick with 5gal batches and pots over 10gal is not only an inconvenience, but a detriment.

Where's the detriment? I regularly brew 5g batches on my eherms that has 20g kettles from Stout-Tanks. It performed identically whether its a 5g or 10g batch.

 

[cacm2226]

I use a domed false bottom like that in my BK. I use it with a standard dip tube. I took out the elbow barb fitting from the FB and built up stainless plumbing fittings that the dip tube fit tightly through. Turns out a camlock male and nut of appropriate size did the trick for me in this case..

this way you can keep your dip tube and use the new domed false bottom with a rigid connection..


Hope this helps.

BSD

I like your recommended solution. What size diameter dip tube are you using and do you recall what size male camlock you used? Selling my current kettle set up and purchasing smaller is not feasible both financially and time consumption. I built the system in order to have the option to do both 10 gallon and 5 gallon batches. The only hick up was the false bottom at this point. If I was to go any smaller with the HLT then I would have to add water to both HLT and mash tun prior to brewing...... but I do appreciate all the help being offered.

 

[cacm2226]

If you're going to fly sparge, you really need to have the whole bottom of the grain bed 'draining' or it will channel and screw with your efficiency.

when referring to the whole bottom of the grain bed, are you suggesting that the entire grain bed should be off of the kettle bottom and suspended by a false bottom that spans the entire circumference of the kettle?

 

[iijakii]

Where's the detriment? I regularly brew 5g batches on my eherms that has 20g kettles from Stout-Tanks. It performed identically whether its a 5g or 10g batch.

Most people have issues with grain depth(what spawned this thread), keeping their elements covered, temp probes covered, etc. You must have a great layout to be able to mash 5gal batches in a 20gal kettle.

 

[cantrell00]

Most people have issues with grain depth(what spawned this thread), keeping their elements covered, temp probes covered, etc. You must have a great layout to be able to mash 5gal batches in a 20gal kettle.

Only if using a elevated false bottom. If using a dome on a flat bottom kettle, they work great.

I'd highly recommend using rice hulls to minimize stuck mashes though ..

Here is the false bottom I'd recommend. Plumbed the same way except I'd buy the parts at Lowes.. You would need 2X 1/2" compression by 1/2" male pipe thread & a short piece of soft, 1/2" OD copper tubing.

You can use a 1/2" street elbow with a weldless 1/2" nut as the dip tube.

http://www.homebrewing.org/Mashing-Made-Cooler-False-Bottom-10-Gallon_p_2879.html

 

[cacm2226]

Are the compression fittings being tightened down on the copper tube? Or is it resting in them for easy removal of the false bottom?

 

[cantrell00]

Are the compression fittings being tightened down on the copper tube? Or is it restinglly in them for easy removal of the false bottom?

Tightened but not super torqued. No real concern for leaks.

Basically tight enough to hold the bottom in place.

I like that bottom more so than the type with perforated holes.

 

[cacm2226]

Tightened but not super torqued. No real concern for leaks.

Basically tight enough to hold the bottom in place.

I like that bottom more so than the type with perforated holes.

is it an issue if the false bottom is smaller in circumference than my kettle, ie. 10 inch round domed false bottom vs. a 15 inch round kettle?

 

[The_Bishop]

when referring to the whole bottom of the grain bed, are you suggesting that the entire grain bed should be off of the kettle bottom and suspended by a false bottom that spans the entire circumference of the kettle?

Ideally, your false bottom should span the entire space the bottom of the grain bed occupies if you're recirculating and/or fly sparging. If it doesn't, the flow will take the path of least resistance, and leave the areas outside the false bottom out of the flow path. Been there, and done that; it's how I know.

 

[cantrell00]

is it an issue if the false bottom is smaller in circumference than my kettle, ie. 10 inch round domed false bottom vs. a 15 inch round kettle?

Not in my experience...It would greatly depend that the bottom of the kettle be flat. Any dents, deformations that provided a gap between it and the bottom would cause channeling issues.

Having a rigid connection from the false bottom to the wall of the kettle/cooler is important though. I wouldn't trust a piece of silicon hose.

 

[geckholm]

Hello to all,

Wanted to post my first HERMS brew experience in order to trouble shoot some issues and de-stress.

I have been brewing for over 3 years and made the move to an electric HERMS 10 gallon system, electric control panel, 15 gallon HLT and BK, 16 gallon Mash Tun, counter flow chiller, dual pumps etc. A Kal and short circuit brewers clone more or less minus the larger vent hoods.

The brew that was made was a 5 gallon batch APA.

3 1/2 gallon mash in
fly sparge to follow to boil volume

Ill list the issues encountered for feed back from you guys.

1. when douging in, 3 gallons of the strike water was below the false bottom, leaving 1/2 a gallon or so above. mash consistency when doug in was like thick oatmeal and was able to be moistened. better consistency when mashing commenced. is this ok or normal?


2. when cooling via counter flow chiller and whirlpool arm, temperature drop was very nice and rapid until a clog was encountered somewhere between the BK and wort pump. During clean up and rinse, I noticed the wort pump wouldnt move water from the now clean BK containing hot water into the wort pump via hose and out said pump. The out side of the pump just spit a little bit of foam. Possible clog in the wort pump? Should I take the pump head off and inspect?

3. Due to the clog, the whirlpool didnt center the trub and hop debri, therefore it mostly went into the stainless conical.

4. I noticed in Kal's brew instructions on his web site, he dough's in at his set temp. Beer smith has me striking at a higher temp as previous brews and then it drops to set temp for mash time. Any pro or con for not striking higher than at mash set temp?

Also, Kal recommended that mash out was not always necessary going into fly sparge but beer smith still lists a mash out for 10 minutes and then into fly sparging. Any suggestions pro or con?

Other than dripping condensation from my vent hood of 350 cfm, those were my stressers.

Thank you to all who reply. sorry in advance for typos

chris

When figuring your required H20 based on you quarts to lbs ratio, ie, 1,25 quarts to pound, take your total water required for mashing and then add in your deadspace volume. That will give you the proper mash thickness. It will also reduce your sparge water requirement. Let me know if you need help on how to do that in beersmith, I can explain it for you.

 

[cacm2226]

When figuring your required H20 based on you quarts to lbs ratio, ie, 1,25 quarts to pound, take your total water required for mashing and then add in your deadspace volume. That will give you the proper mash thickness. It will also reduce your sparge water requirement. Let me know if you need help on how to do that in beersmith, I can explain it for you.

PM sent

 

[geckholm]

PM sent

Just replied.

 

[lschiavo]

When figuring your required H20 based on you quarts to lbs ratio, ie, 1,25 quarts to pound, take your total water required for mashing and then add in your deadspace volume. That will give you the proper mash thickness. It will also reduce your sparge water requirement. Let me know if you need help on how to do that in beersmith, I can explain it for you.

It is not technically deadspace though because it looks like most of the MLT will be drained to the BK. When recirculating with the HERMS, you will actuall have a significantly thinned down mash. I am not really sure how much different that would make but IMO, I would try to minimize the deadspace.

 

[cantrell00]

It is not technically deadspace though because it looks like most of the MLT will be drained to the BK. When recirculating with the HERMS, you will actuall have a significantly thinned down mash. I am not really sure how much different that would make but IMO, I would try to minimize the deadspace.

That was my dilemma with my HERMS originally & why I ended up with a dome.

 

[geckholm]

It is not technically deadspace though because it looks like most of the MLT will be drained to the BK. When recirculating with the HERMS, you will actuall have a significantly thinned down mash. I am not really sure how much different that would make but IMO, I would try to minimize the deadspace.

True, it's not technically deadspace. The way I look at it, in my system I have 2 gallons of water under the false bottom. During mash, as I recirculate, this water is always sitting under the grain and not really with it (yeah, the molecules of water change, but you get my point). Therefore, the amount of water creating the mash and actually residing with the grain is still meeting my target of 1.25 qt/lb. It works well for me, the mash isn't too thin. My only concern is the possibility of the pH being knocked out of whack, but that has not happened yet.

 

[lschiavo]

True, it's not technically deadspace. The way I look at it, in my system I have 2 gallons of water under the false bottom. During mash, as I recirculate, this water is always sitting under the grain and not really with it (yeah, the molecules of water change, but you get my point). Therefore, the amount of water creating the mash and actually residing with the grain is still meeting my target of 1.25 qt/lb. It works well for me, the mash isn't too thin. My only concern is the possibility of the pH being knocked out of whack, but that has not happened yet.

Makes sense. I have actually done a few full volume no sparge batches with the HERMS system. I mashed in as usuall. I had the remainder of the water ready in the BK. I circulated from the BK to the HEX to MLT and back to the BK. They were all very good beers and cut out a lot of sparging time. I guess that is not much different. Although, I did make adjustments for the entire batch of water.

 

[BSD_Glass]

Lol! I am moving tomorrow and my entire brewery is all packed up. I have 2 kettles set up that way and just configured it from the box of extra stainless fittings I have. I think I have a 5/8" dip tube and a half inch dip tube. The idea is to find a fitting that is pretty tight so no grain can get through the spaces. I bet Bobby from NJ would test fit something for you though if you asked...

Cheers.

Looking forward to brewing again in like 3 months.... heh

BSD

I like your recommended solution. What size diameter dip tube are you using and do you recall what size male camlock you used? Selling my current kettle set up and purchasing smaller is not feasible both financially and time consumption. I built the system in order to have the option to do both 10 gallon and 5 gallon batches. The only hick up was the false bottom at this point. If I was to go any smaller with the HLT then I would have to add water to both HLT and mash tun prior to brewing...... but I do appreciate all the help being offered.