First brew - off taste

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Ionya

Ionya

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My first batch is done.

It was an extract kit brown ale. I hit my numbers for SG and FG. 2 weeks in primary, 2 weeks in secondary, 4 weeks in bottles

It tasted ok before bottling. After 1 week in bottles I thought it tasted pretty good for being only a week old. Since then it seems to be getting worse as time goes by. I had one @ 2 weeks and thought it was drinkable but had a sour, green appley aftertaste. Figured it was just young.

I am now at 4 weeks in the bottles and the taste is more pronounced. I could only drink half a beer last night and dumped the rest out. It was drinkable but I had some craft brew in the fridge that actually tasted good.

I gave 4 to a friend last week and he said it tasted acidy but good. I think it is getting worse or maybe I am more sensitive to the off flavor now that I know it is there.

I just moved the bottles to the basement I guess I will leave it there for a month or two and try it again? Is there any hope for this beer? The taste on the front is actually quite good but the vinegary/acidy aftertaste ruins it. The first sip is delicious but as you take more sips it gets worse and worse throughout the glass of beer.
 
Yes poured it into glass left last 1/2" in bottle.

Bottles were stored at 70 - 72 degrees. Now in basement are 65ish.
 
Star san for bottles. Oxy clean to clean them and get the labels off.

I soaked them in Oxy clean then peeled labels rinsed them then dunked in Star san for a minute or so. Soaked caps in Star San.


However for my equipment I used LD Carlson one step cleaner that was before I got star san.
 
95% of first time brewers: "Made my first batch, tastes sour"
95% of these threads get the reply "sounds like an infection"

Truth is it most likely is NOT an infection, welcome to the world of "extract twang". Most likely it is the taste of Homebrew, especially extract with adjuncts.

Keep at it until you get a batch that doesn't like homebrew, thats the game:mug:
 
If it's getting worse then I doubt it is extract twang. It sounds like an infection probably introduced at bottling.
 
Worrying will not help. Honestly, it does sound like infection. Put it away for several more weeks and then try again. If you started the siphon with your mouth, you could have introduced certain bacteria that can cause sour flavors. There are other sources of infection as well. They can sometimes take a few weeks to really get going.

Realistically it's actually pretty rare to get an infection if you are even somewhat careful, and it sounds like you were. So RDWHAHB and wait it out. If it is an infection it will get much worse in a few weeks. If it doesn't, then you may only have a poor batch (or a very good one).
 
It's not extract twang. That's the "quinine" like flavor that comes from incorrect brewing temps with extract. The cans anyway. There's a particular microbe that can cause it to break down into vinegar. It was in a recent thread. Acetobactylus or something like that.
Sour/cidery flavors are also a product of the initial pitch temp being to high. But.like my 1st batch,it ages out,rather than getting more pronounced. I let it age for 3 weeks at about 70F. Then into the fridge for 5 days. I tasted one last night (fat Tuesday!),couldn't stand the suspense anymore. Wow!! Time really does heal all wounds. Especially beer.
Give it some more time,as stated before trying it again.
 
rjwhite41 said:
If it's getting worse then I doubt it is extract twang. It sounds like an infection probably introduced at bottling.
Click to expand...

He also says the first sip tastes good but with drinking more it tastes "sour". Do you think it develops the infection after the bottle is opened and thats why it gets worse while drinking the same bottle?

I gave 4 to a friend last week and he said it tasted acidy but good. I think it is getting worse or maybe I am more sensitive to the off flavor now that I know it is there.

Beleive what you like, but again the majority of first timers who are not accoustomed to the taste of homebrew come on and say "my first batch tastes sour" and members here just like your reply say "hmmm...sounds like an infection".

But the truth is most first batches don't have an infection (read the 20 threads or more about folks who dunked their arms up to the elbow in their fermenter) and most kit homebrew first batches DO taste sour.
 
Mine doesn't.Not in the slightest. Just tried one last night,3 weeks & 2 days exactly. Hence my additional comments. Bad temp control is the # one producer of off flavors in extract kits. Go on youtube & look up steeljan's channel. She does AG,partial mash,& extract. She nails this one down.
All extract is very different than AG in that respect. You MUST be accurate with temps,giving the yeast the temp it wants for a clean ferment. Usually toward the lower end of the yeast's temp range.
Steeljan says it,Craig says it...now I'm saying it. I learned that one the hard way. Believe me.
 
unionrdr said:
It's not extract twang. That's the "quinine" like flavor that comes from incorrect brewing temps with extract. The cans anyway. There's a particular microbe that can cause it to break down into vinegar. It was in a recent thread. Acetobactylus or something like that.
Sour/cidery flavors are also a product of the initial pitch temp being to high. But.like my 1st batch,it ages out,rather than getting more pronounced. I let it age for 3 weeks at about 70F. Then into the fridge for 5 days. I tasted one last night (fat Tuesday!),couldn't stand the suspense anymore. Wow!! Time really does heal all wounds. Especially beer.
Give it some more time,as stated before trying it again.
Click to expand...

You're talking about acetobacter and the odds are strongly against him having it. He followed good sanitization which makes the odds of an infection very low, but generally when talking about someone having an infected batch we are talking about lactobacillus (usually from your own mouth), not acetobacter, and acetobacter is an aerobic bacteria. His closed bottles with propagating yeast and high levels of CO2 are an anaerobic environment.
 
Thanx. I couldn't remember the name of the bacteria. I keep thinkin I read another cause for that off flavor in my Cooper's book. Just can't find the bloody thing. But,mine had some off flavors to a lesser extent that were similar. But sitting on the yeast cake & aging took them out. 12 days in primary,nearly 4 weeks in the bottle. Maybe search it on here...may've seen it here as well.?
 
Did not start the siphon with my mouth. I have an auto siphon. I feel I was reasonably careful with sanitation although not 100% on it. Just occasional little things like my hand had water on it it dripped into bucket but only a drop or two. The auto siphon touched a uncovered piece of countertop for .5 a second. Etc. Not sure if that spells doom but to me it seems to be much cleaner - I would need a clean room and hose it down daily.

My tempertures were screwy when I brewed this. I had started it in the basement it was low 60s down there. But after 2 weeks it was still sitting 5 points over FG. It had the same reading for 10 days straight which was still to high. I checked 4 different times during that period.

So I moved it upstairs to a warmer area of the house in a closet. It finished out at the right FG in 2 more weeks. I then bottled and left them upstairs at 70 - 72* for 3 weeks.

I would be surprised if it was infected but I don't know much of anything so... I just feel like I was reasonably careful to prevent it used Star San the bottles were foamy when I filled them.

If this is extract twang I will be very disappointed. I don't have the time, money or energy to do AG. And if all the beers taste like this, I am sorry, but yuck. The taste has stuck with me today it is very ~ sour, vinegary?? Not sure but it isn't flavorful at all.

My second batch I just bottled it is a Hefe-Weizen. It tasted delicious at bottling very good funk flavor for a Hefe. Hopefully, it won't go downhill from here and can maintain a good flavor.

Do you think this was just a temperature Issue? Or just a bad patch? It was my first batch so it could be just bad luck with temps? I struggled on the initial boil also had to boil it split in half.

If it tasted like the first sip all the way through the whole glass It would be delicious.

Also thanks everyone for the responses and insight.
 
If it was liquid extract,you never boil it. I don't even boil DME's. DME/LME has already been through the process of mashing,hot break,etc. Just concentrated or dried in 2 dif ways. I got this from The Cooper's tech advisor.
But,yeah,I think you're dealing with the usual "off flavors",after reading the last post. Just a lot of them from the temp extremes the beer went through.
What I stopped doing is going by the instructions that say to mix it in the fermenter. Then add the cold top off water. It never gets low enough to pitch safely for good,clean initial ferment. I do all my mixing in the brew kettle (all extract) after removing from the heat. But now I'll put it in an ice water bath in the sink,covered with a lid. Stir that ice water,& the wart for more efficient heat transfer.
Get it down to 72F (for the ale yeast I use atm),then pour into the FV & top off with spring water. That should fix it,other than maintaining the optimum temp for the qualities you want in the style your brewing.
 
It's almost definitely NOT an infection, due you what you said and the actual odds. It also doesn't sound like fermentation temps were a problem.

When brewing with extract, I try to only use distilled water, for the simple fact that the extracting process retains minerals from the manufacturer, and when you use tap or spring water, you are adding more. Possibly more than you really want of certain ones. It could be simple like that.

I think everyone here agrees to relax and let it ride for a bit.
 
unionrdr said:
If it was liquid extract,you never boil it. I don't even boil DME's. DME/LME has already been through the process of mashing,hot break,etc. Just concentrated or dried in 2 dif ways. I got this from The Cooper's tech advisor.
But,yeah,I think you're dealing with the usual "off flavors",after reading the last post. Just a lot of them from the temp extremes the beer went through.
What I stopped doing is going by the instructions that say to mix it in the fermenter. Then add the cold top off water. It never gets low enough to pitch safely for good,clean initial ferment. I do all my mixing in the brew kettle (all extract) after removing from the heat. But now I'll put it in an ice water bath in the sink,covered with a lid. Stir that ice water,& the wart for more efficient heat transfer.
Get it down to 72F (for the ale yeast I use atm),then pour into the FV & top off with spring water. That should fix it,other than maintaining the optimum temp for the qualities you want in the style your brewing.
Click to expand...

Unless the kit was pre-hopped, he'd have to boil in order to get the hops to isomerize and give up their bitterness.
 
My last batch the Hefe. Went much better all the way around. So hopefully that will be much better.


What I did -

I was able to boil 3.5g in a 5g Kettle on a propane burner. I then put the kettle in a ice bath in my sink and cooled it off in about 20 - 30 min. To 78* then pitched yeast poured into bucket and topped off with spring water.

So I should not put the LME/DME in until the end? Should I put half in at boil then the other half in at last 10 min? Or all at the end?

I do not use pre-hopped. I have been using Mid West kits /w specialty grains.
 
Find your local brew club, and bring it up there for someone to critique. They are likely going to be very familiar with different off flavors, and offer you some insight, based on your procedures. Should help you pin-point it.
 
As I said before,take a look at steeljan's vids on youtube. She uses RO water,& still got that twang. Until she got brew temps under more precise control. I learned the same thing.
That's one of the big difs between extract & AG. Extracts are much more temp sensitive. You must be getting the temps right homer.?
And you don't have to use extract (or some small amount) to get the bitterness out of the hops. That's just a function of being boiled in water. I've read on here of a guy that does IPA's with a lot of hops. The $$ was killing him. So,he found that by putting the hops in a French Press,filling with boiling water & pressing after allowing to steep,he got stronger hop flavor/bittering with way less hops. That one's a good read.
I may just get a small French Press & try that. It seems to emulate higher utilization of the oils. I saved a link to get them in 3 sizes.
 
brewit2it said:
95% of first time brewers: "Made my first batch, tastes sour"
95% of these threads get the reply "sounds like an infection"

Truth is it most likely is NOT an infection, welcome to the world of "extract twang". Most likely it is the taste of Homebrew, especially extract with adjuncts.

Keep at it until you get a batch that doesn't like homebrew, thats the game:mug:
Click to expand...

95% of first time brewers do not complain about their beer being sour. :confused:

Extract brewers win brewing competitions, too, so your extract twang and "taste of Homebrew" thesis strikes me as misguided.
 
Ionya said:
If it tasted like the first sip all the way through the whole glass It would be delicious.
Click to expand...

Friend, your beer doesn't change flavor after your first sip. That would be magical beer :) Your perception does or your sensitivity to the off-flavor you are perceiving increases.
 
The first sip tastes good. After half a glass it is gross. Maybe the off flavor builds up on my palate as I drink it. I don't know.
 
Ionya said:
The first sip tastes good. After half a glass it is gross. Maybe the off flavor builds up on my palate as I drink it. I don't know.
Click to expand...

Infections can easily happen at bottling. The easiest thing to do now is to see if you can rule that out as a cause. Decant a bottle into a glass and let it warm up a bit and decarbonate. Check the gravity and if it is lower than your measured FG at bottling, you either have an infection or you bottled too early. If the FG is the same THEN you can begin to entertain other causes.
 
Pappers_ said:
95% of first time brewers do not complain about their beer being sour. :confused:

Extract brewers win brewing competitions, too, so your whole extract twang and "taste of Homebrew" thesis strikes me as misguided.
Click to expand...

It may not be 95% but its up there if we are talking about the ones who have never tasted homebrew, and use one of the cheaper kits especially with adjunct sugars. They are almost universally disappointed in the taste of the first batch and nearly always describe it as sour.

And obviously I didn't make up extract twang. Even the maker of Breiss LME talks about it in an interview. It's less likely with DME since it is a function of reactions with age in the liquid extract itself. That is why many extract brewers are strong believers in DME over LME.
 
Well,in a nutshell,it's like I said. The twang comes from a quinine-like off flavor that increases with how much ferment temps were off initially. Or how much they are allowed to vary up or down. Got to get it down to the righ temp before pitching,& do whatever it takes to keep it there.
But I will also say this. Imo,it doesn't build up so much as linger on the back of the tongue.
So age it some more & that might help some. But keep those ferment temps at the optimum. You'll get cleaner flavor. Over & above the style of water used. That's a whole 'nuther book,right there...:drunk: Then start talkin about DME added to LME with BS in the FV gettin hit by yeasties when the temp feels good...rofl.
 
JMO I will try that out. What is the fastest easiest way to decarb or just let it sit out until tomorrow? And then take a gravity reading? i am pretty sure it was done - it read same FG in a 3 day span. I checked it Friday then bottled it Sunday same gravity reading both days.

I did add too much sugar in hindsight. I put in the full 5oz but it was only about 4.5 g of beer. Could this have soured it?

I am very picky about my beers as I am sure most people on this board are. I can be a harsh critic of even the larger craft breweries. So it could be just my palate detecting the twang but this seems pretty pronounced to me. As an off flavor goes. I can't imagine anyone enjoying it. Maybe choke a couple down but not regularly.

I know I should probably just deal with it. Stick it in the basement for a month or two and hope the Hefe turns out better. I just bottled it so in 2 -3 weeks I should know how it turned out. If it has the same bad aftertaste than maybe homebrewing isn't for me. or there is something wrong with my process.
 
Union yes back of the tongue definitely sits there.

My ferm temps do vary where I keep everything and obviously this first batch even more so in going from basement to upstairs closet.

The closet varies also i live in an old drafty house and SWMBO won't let me leave it sitting out. The closet is 70 - 73* steady if you can call that steady...

The heating vent runs through this closet so it is warmer than other areas of the house. In Maryland Summers my basement should be perfect temp.
 
Ionya said:
JMO I will try that out. What is the fastest easiest way to decarb or just let it sit out until tomorrow? And then take a gravity reading? i am pretty sure it was it read same FG in a 3 day span. I checked it Friday then bottled it Sunday same gravity reading both days.
Click to expand...

I thought the beer was bottled weeks ago. I'm confused I guess. It seems like you're talking about two batches. Only try this method if the beer is fully carbed and has been in bottles for a month (which I thought they were).
 
If it gets worse then its an infection. It's really that simple. If it stays the same or subsides then it is something else. Extract beer does not have to taste this way. Hopefully your wheat will be much better.
 
I would hesitate to argue that temps aren't a problem, because they certainly can be, and improper fermentation temps is possibly the biggest mistake new brewers make.

But after looking at his fermentation schedule I don't see anything that would cause a problem. He got the temp down at the start and kept it there for 2 weeks, by which time nearly all of the sugar would have been converted and the yeast already started working on cleaning up. Those first several days are the most critical to the flavor of the beer, and even if the temp went up later, it wasn't so high to cause a problem.

And I'd disagree that extract is more susceptible to fermentation temps than AG beer. What difference does it make? Always ferment at the lower end of the yeast's optimum range for a cleaner flavor. That's the case for all beer.

Surely it would be better to use a full boil if you have the kettle capacity, and to do a late extract addition method, but it's not a huge deal if you can't. It certainly won't make a beer that you can't stand to drink.
 
Do you know anything about the water you used to brew with? Was it a local supply? Ground source? Bottled? Certain minerals and additives in your water can greatly affect the flavor of your beer, and it can vary by beer style as well (Dark grains vs light grains) as the roast flavors and hop flavors are perceived with the help of the minerals in the water.

And you can feel free to send me a bottle or two to taste for you. I'm always open to sampling beer! Or enter it into a competition and see what an expert taster can tell you.
 
+1

1) Oxy Clean to remove labels (I keep a chest cooler in the garage and drop labeled bottles in there until it reaches critical mass).

2) Thoroughly spray with water to rinse (I use a JET bottle rinser from the hose).

3) StarSan to sanitize for bottling day (Vinator is your friend - totally worth the $20 or so).
 

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