First BJCP Results Help

[OatStraw]

Hey all,

I entered my first BJCP competition and received the results on Friday, although it didn't turn out very good I am glad to have the feedback. I was hoping some of you may be able to review the feedback and let me know what may have gone wrong, as I don't know how to correct some of these things.

I brewed an All-Grain IPA and entered it as 14B.

This was the recipe I used
http://www.highgravitybrew.com/docs/MyFavoriteIPA.pdf

 

[Yooper]

That is actually great feedback! They have great information there, telling you what is wrong with the beer. It sounds like they've nailed it with a yeast issue and/or fermentation issue, along with oxidation.

Yeast health (or rather, poor yeast health) is most often the cause of acetaldehyde and diacetyl. I suspect that they are thinking that there was an inadequate amount of yeast pitched and/or uncontrolled fermentation temperatures. "Grassy" and vegetal flavors can come from a too-long time on the dryhops, or using older hops. Oxidation is the most common flaw I've seen in competitions, and the most commonly denied flaw by brewers.

They gave you great material to work with even though it makes you go "ouch" when you read it.

 

[OatStraw]

Yeah I don't mind the "ouch" (although it was painful at first ) I was more entering for this type of feedback, so I'm glad I have it now.

I think this has encouraged me to start doing yeast starters and not just the smack packs alone. The problem I will continue to have is controlling yeast temperatures. I leave it in an unused bathroom in my house, but have no way to control the temps it's on "house air".

I will have to find how it got Oxidized. I am really careful with this so I will have to check everything over again. The only time I "think" I am allowing oxygen in is when I rack from boil kettle to primary, but this is supposed to happen. Would my 6.5 gal carboy I use for secondary be allowing too much head space, resulting in oxygen?

 

[Yooper]

I think this has encouraged me to start doing yeast starters and not just the smack packs alone. The problem I will continue to have is controlling yeast temperatures. I leave it in an unused bathroom in my house, but have no way to control the temps it's on "house air".

I will have to find how it got Oxidized. I am really careful with this so I will have to check everything over again. The only time I "think" I am allowing oxygen in is when I rack from boil kettle to primary, but this is supposed to happen. Would my 6.5 gal carboy I use for secondary be allowing too much head space, resulting in oxygen?

Then they definitely nailed your issues! To make a higher gravity brew (can't see your recipe) without enough yeast and only one vial or pack of yeast is severe underpitching. Not controlling fermentation temperatures will exacerbate any flaws from the underpitching, but causes off-flavors on its own as well. Making a starter or pitching more yeast packs (consult mrmalty.com for the appropriate yeast pitch) will fix that.

Many brewers will tell you that oxidation can't happen from a secondary with lots of headspace. But I will tell you that they are wrong. Once the beer stops fermenting and producing c02, moving it at all does risk oxidation but will all do it to get to a bottle or keg. Minimizing those risk would be to flood a container with co2, racking under c02, or avoiding a secondary with a large headspace.

Most of the beers I've judged, even some of the better ones, seem to have a degree of oxidation. It can be very slight, and not the huge "cardboard" flavor talked about, but it's often present. It first might taste a bit stale, or slightly astringent on the sides of the tongue, then musty. It might then pick up some sherry-like flavors (madierize) as it ages. Only severe oxidation has the classic "cardboard" flavor talked about on this forum and in other places. It gets worse with time, so a slightly stale tasting beer today might taste like cardboard in two months.

Many brewers will tell you that the "co2 blanket" will protect the beer from oxidation. That's true to some extent, as that happens during fermentation. But once fermentation ends and co2 isn't being produced any longer, you want to make a real effort to avoid oxidation.

 

[unionrdr]

I wouldn't think so,since the head space in primary fills with co2 naturally. Maybe how you rack to the bottling bucket? Do you use a bottling wand? And I don't turn off the spigot when I need to sanitize the last of the bottles ( I have a 45 bottle tree & vinator). I prop the wand up off the bottom of a bottle with th tube draped over something so it doesn't fill the bottle while I'm sanitizing more.
This has the effect of keeping the bottling wands' tube full of beer. Shutting of at the spigot will fill the tube with air. Sounds like you also need better temp control. I started chiling the wort down to 60-62F since the last two batches. It's better to start out low temp-wise,then slowly let the wort's temp raise slowly to make sure it finishes at the right FG range. It'll be a bit cleaner too. You also need to work on your hop amounts & addition schedule.
Dang,guess I need to type & think faster...

 

[Brewskii]

I will have to find how it got Oxidized. I am really careful with this so I will have to check everything over again. The only time I "think" I am allowing oxygen in is when I rack from boil kettle to primary, but this is supposed to happen. Would my 6.5 gal carboy I use for secondary be allowing too much head space, resulting in oxygen?

If you bottle condition I would focus ( especially on an IPA) on getting it to the judges table around week 3 or 4 in the bottle. This will give you maximum hop freshness and adequate time to carbonate while minimizing the opportunity for O2 issues.
Oxigenation in bottled samples from draft ( ala Blichmann beer gun) I would think had to be punished somehow in addition to any o2'inclusion. Store at room temp or cooler and fresher is better for IPA and wheat.
How long do you dry hop for? Grassy note indicates too long. Should be 3-5 day range.

My $.02

 

[boo boo]

.
Oxigenation in bottled samples from draft ( ala Blichmann beer gun) I would think had to be punished somehow in addition to any o2'inclusion.
My $.02

I use a beer gun and never have issues with oxygenation of my beer.
I pre purge before filling and when I am removing the wand, I give it another blast to top off the bottle just in case.

 

[unionrdr]

Wheat yes,IPA's...not so much. My mid gravity IPA needs 4-5 weeks conditioning to be at it's peak. Even though it'll likely be fully carbed in 11 days flat. I feel one should be in tune with every aspect of a particular ale you brew so as to make sure it's at it's best in every way possible at judging time.

 

[OatStraw]

Thanks for the feedback.

I bottled from the keg using a bottling cane and picnic faucet. The cane remained full because it has the spring retention on the end. I also caped on top of foam, so the bottles should be purged.

I think my dry hopping schedule does answer one question. I dry hopped for 10 days, I will cut this by half next time.

Sadly I don't know how I am going to control ferm temps without building a fermentation chamber. Looks like that is my next project, once the keezer is finished.

 

[boo boo]

One of, if not the most important aspect of fermentation is proper temperature control

 

[unionrdr]

You don't have to cut your dry hop time in half. Just cut it to 7 days even. Works best for me.

 

[OatStraw]

One of, if not the most important aspect of fermentation is proper temperature control

Ok maybe control isnt the right word. I can keep a constant temp, but cant change the temp to often since it's in my house.

 

[boo boo]

Ok maybe control isnt the right word. I can keep a constant temp, but cant change the temp to often since it's in my house.

Yeah, I understand your situation, but also keeping it at the proper temperature for the yeast used makes a lot of difference.

 

[erikpete18]

Ok maybe control isnt the right word. I can keep a constant temp, but cant change the temp to often since it's in my house.

If you're not already doing so, you can at least use a swamp cooler to keeps temps low during the initial heat of fermentation. All it requires is a plastic tub to put your fermenter in, fill it part way up with water, and use frozen water bottles floating in the water to keep the temps down. The water will also provide a large mass so any room temp changes won't automatically change the fermenter temp. There's plenty of other ideas on here on how to decrease temps further (drape a t-shirt over the fermenter to it wicks up the cold water and evaporates, blow a fan on the t-shirt to increase evaporation, etc.). You won't be able to dial in a specific temp, but you can at least make sure that the temp of the fermenter doesn't get the 5-10 degree spike during initial fermenter that is common.

If you're already using a swamp cooler and want to control temps further without taking up too much room, I converted a mini-fridge with a small collar to fit a fermenter inside. It saves quite a bit of room over a full-scale freezer/fridge fermentation chamber, and gives me a place to control temps for at least the first week or two, or until I've got a new batch to go in. For the price of a minifridge on craigslist and a temp controller (about $150 total I think), you can have your temp control.

 

[Brewskii]

I use a beer gun and never have issues with oxygenation of my beer.
I pre purge before filling and when I am removing the wand, I give it another blast to top off the bottle just in case.

I agree that is a good method... I'm just saying if it had moderate/average air inclusion (read: low) that in order to develop oxidized notes it would have to have spent some hot time somewhere (aka: punished)

 

[OatStraw]

Thanks I will look into the swamp cooler idea. Since I place my bucket into the bathtub of the bathroom I have it in, I could just fill the tub up with water.

 

[djfriesen]

I suppose, depending on local humidity, a swamp cooler might have varying degrees of success. Have you tried one, only to find it doesn't work? They are simple to make (you likely have everything sitting around your house or apartment already) and are good for temp control on a budget. Most ale yeasts will want to be in the low to mid 60s during active fermentation, with perhaps a slight increase over the last few days to help the yeast finish up.

 

[elvestinkle]

Sadly I don't know how I am going to control ferm temps without building a fermentation chamber. Looks like that is my next project, once the keezer is finished.

erikpete's right--water is a fantastic temperature regulator in absence of anything high-tech. I use a rubbermaid tub and frozen soda bottles, and watch the floating thermometer like a hawk the first several days after pitching.

 

[BiscayneBrewing]

I have to say you have some testicular fortitude to post your score sheets like that. My hats off to you sir. It's obvious you are dedicated to making better beer.

With that said, this last year I bit the bullet and built the fementation chamber and, without a doubt, it has made the biggest improvement to my beer when compared to any thing else I've tried to improve/modify.

 

[bullinachinashop]

As stated in erikpete18's post above, A swamp cooler is an affordable and easy way to start.

If you can maintain 68 degrees, you'll be great for almost any ale yeast.

Good Luck, keep brewing and learn every time!

Bull

 

[OatStraw]

Yeah I don't mind posting the sheets, they make it sound like the stuff is toxic to your health, but all my friends and I love it so that's what I base my brews on. Constructive criticism doesn't bother me. I wanted to post it so I could get answers on how to fix the issues they documented, and thankfully I have.

It sounds like my major issues are yeast pitching (going to start using starters) and fermentation temperatures (going to start swamp cooling till I can get a ferm chamber).

 

[Yooper]

It sounds like my major issues are yeast pitching (going to start using starters) and fermentation temperatures (going to start swamp cooling till I can get a ferm chamber).

Yep, those are the two that seem to be the biggies, and also easiest to fix.

To fix the oxidation issue, don't rack to secondary at all. But if you do rack, don't use a 6.5 gallon carboy! Use a 5 gallon carboy or don't rack. I know others scoffed at oxidation, but you had two experienced judges pick it out. It's there.

 

[djfriesen]

I'll be getting my first "constructive criticism" sometime after March 5 (Slurp and Burp '12). Hopefully I can muster the courage to post my score sheets. I'm entering a robust porter, but they also have an alternate category for new brewers (less than 1 year experience). I'm torn as to where I should put it. I think I'll probably sack up, and pit it against the big boys.

 

[OatStraw]

Yep, those are the two that seem to be the biggies, and also easiest to fix.

To fix the oxidation issue, don't rack to secondary at all. But if you do rack, don't use a 6.5 gallon carboy! Use a 5 gallon carboy or don't rack. I know others scoffed at oxidation, but you had two experienced judges pick it out. It's there.

So are you advocating not using a secondary at all? I'm confused as how else to get from primary to secondary without racking?

 

[drhookmec]

Oatstraw:
Where did you send your beers for review?
What competition was this?

Tim

 

[OatStraw]

Oatstraw:
Where did you send your beers for review?
What competition was this?

Tim

Kansas City Bier Meisters 29th Annual Homebrew Competition

 

[drhookmec]

Kansas City Bier Meisters 29th Annual Homebrew Competition

Thanks, After brewing for 6yrs i'm starting to think it's getting time to
send in some of my beers in for a review.

Only problem: I don't know where to send them... LOL

Tim

 

[Brewskii]

So are you advocating not using a secondary at all? I'm confused as how else to get from primary to secondary without racking?

I think Yoop is saying don't secondary if you can help it. If you use buckets you can dry hop and not move it.
If you have to move it use a "right sized" vessel to minimize headspace. There is not much if any effervescence or krausen in secondary
So choose a vessel that will hold just the liquid with a minimal head space.

 

[Yooper]

So are you advocating not using a secondary at all? I'm confused as how else to get from primary to secondary without racking?

I think Yoop is saying don't secondary if you can help it. If you use buckets you can dry hop and not move it.
If you have to move it use a "right sized" vessel to minimize headspace. There is not much if any effervescence or krausen in secondary
So choose a vessel that will hold just the liquid with a minimal head space.

Yep, that's what I'm suggesting. If you don't move the beer, you can't risk oxidizing it. Simply dryhop 5-7 days before packaging if you're dryhopping.

Or, if you feel that you must use a bright tank (the correct term for a "secondary" in a brewery), then make sure you put a 5 gallon batch in a 5 gallon carboy, purging with c02 if you possibly can. Using a 6.5 gallon carboy for a bright tank may risk oxidation unnecessarily, and if a judge picks it up, it's probably there.

I have judged a number of competition, and many, if not most, of the beers submitted have some level of oxidation even though the brewers themselves don't seem to pick it up.

 

[OatStraw]

Thinking that giving away my college mini fridge a few years ago was a bad idea. Would make a nice ferm chamber now. Craigslist here i come.