First big beer, need some advice.

[steelerfanatic7]

Yesterday i made my first high gravity beer, a russian imperial stout with an og of 1.103. I used a liquid irish ale yeast white labs 004. I dont have a stir plate so i did not make a starter. I just let it get to room temp, shook it up and pitched it. Is there anything i need to do ( its been about 15 hours ) to make sure it gets through all the sugar? I Aerorated the wort well with a wisk. Any tips are appreciated.

 

[Darwin18]

You don't need a stir plate to make a starter. I think you've really underpitched this beer and you may have some off-flavors come out of it.

 

[deputyandy]

I'd guess that was way underpitched. I don't have a stir plate but I still make starters. A stir plate is the most effective method but not crucial. Everyone on here refers to mrmalty.com for his yeast calculator. It's pretty conservative in terms of how much yeast to use for low gravity beers, but its pretty much the gold standard.

 

[steelerfanatic7]

You don't need a stir plate to make a starter. I think you've really underpitched this beer and you may have some off-flavors come out of it.

The recipe has me repitch another batch of yeast before bottling? Will this help?

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

i too, make starters for every batch and don't own a stirplate. how well did you aerate? if you aerated well, your brew will likely get to FG, but due to the under pitch, it may not. it will also probably have a lot of 'off' flavors due to the stressed yeast.

the repitch is at bottling is to ensure healthy yeast is around for bottle conditioning because the first pitch will be spent after fermenting a big brew and the aging time it takes for a beer like a RIS. pitching at bottling time (which is ONLY after FG is reached) won't help the beer ferment more.

 

[steelerfanatic7]

i too, make starters for every batch and don't own a stirplate. how well did you aerate? if you aerated well, your brew will likely get to FG, but due to the under pitch, it may not. it will also probably have a lot of 'off' flavors due to the stressed yeast.

the repitch is at bottling is to ensure healthy yeast is around for bottle conditioning because the first pitch will be spent after fermenting a big brew and the aging time it takes for a beer like a RIS. pitching at bottling time (which is ONLY after FG is reached) won't help the beer ferment more.

I aerated really well ( i think ) Aggressively stirring with a wisk for several minutes.

 

[lastsecondapex]

I think you'll be fine. Most liquid yeast was designed to not need starting. It is recommended just to increase viability and limit over-stressing. The problem you've ran into is because that gravity is so high, you aren't going to have enough yeast to be able to clean themselves up without the possibility of strange off flavors- same can happen with way overpitching.

If you don't want to make starters, just pitch an extra vial of yeast for anything over about 1.070.

No worries on this though, after about 36-48 hours the yeast should have replicated enough for it to ferment like normal.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

I aerated really well ( i think ) Aggressively stirring with a wisk for several minutes.

for my RIS, a 2 gal batch @ 1.097, MrMalty called for a 1.3L starter (bigger than many 5 gal batches) with one pk of 1275. i aerated with an aquarium pump and stone for 30 or so mins prior to pitch, due to the OG of the beer. many smaller beers i use the whip on a drill method to aerate and am just fine, but with a big brew, you want a lot of o2 for the yeast to use during reproduction. with an under pitch, more reproduction happens, so you'd want more o2 in the wort.

I think you'll be fine. Most liquid yeast was designed to not need starting. It is recommended just to increase viability and limit over-stressing. The problem you've ran into is because that gravity is so high, you aren't going to have enough yeast to be able to clean themselves up without the possibility of strange off flavors- same can happen with way overpitching.

If you don't want to make starters, just pitch an extra vial of yeast for anything over about 1.070.

No worries on this though, after about 36-48 hours the yeast should have replicated enough for it to ferment like normal.

not to be argumentative, but this is plain wrong. starters are made to grow new yeast, not just check viability. and liquid is designed to need a starter, it's dry yeast that doesn't need one. also, according to most pitch rate calcs, one pack or vial (fresh, a week or less old) is enough for 5 gal of 1.028 wort, anything bigger will require a starter of some sorts. i know what the smack packs say about 1.06 and one pack, they're wrong, even Chris White (white labs) says so is his book, "yeast:......".
we're tailing about a beer w/ an OG over 1.1 here, one pack is no where close to enough yeast, and whereas i'm sure the OP will be 'fine', his RIS may be laden with stressed yeast flavors and possibly under attenuated due to an under pitch.

 

[steelerfanatic7]

Should i pitch more yeast? Its been about 16 hours. Im getting a bubble every 5 seconds through the airlock. I would hate for this beer to sit 9 months and not be drinkable

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

personally, i would. but, by the time you get a starter going, all the yeast from the original pitch will be up to population and fermenting. but it wouldn't hurt to try it at this point.

 

[flabyboy]

Definitely under pitched this one, but I'm sure it will be good beer nonetheless. You should really consider getting or making a stir plate. It really makes starter grow exponentially more than just shaking it once in awhile. I pretty much get by with a one liter starter on any brew, with the exception of a big lager

 

[lastsecondapex]

for my RIS, a 2 gal batch @ 1.097, MrMalty called for a 1.3L starter (bigger than many 5 gal batches) with one pk of 1275. i aerated with an aquarium pump and stone for 30 or so mins prior to pitch, due to the OG of the beer. many smaller beers i use the whip on a drill method to aerate and am just fine, but with a big brew, you want a lot of o2 for the yeast to use during reproduction. with an under pitch, more reproduction happens, so you'd want more o2 in the wort.

no to be argumentative, but this is plain wrong. starters are made to grow new yeast, not just check viability. and liquid is designed to need a starter, it's dry yeast that doesn't need one. also, according to most pitch rate calks, one pack or vial (fresh, a week or less old) is enough for 5 gal of 1.028 wort, anything bigger will require a starter of some sorts. i know what the smack packs say about 1.06 and one pack, they're wrong, even Chris White (white labs) says so is his book, "yeast:......".

I said 'increase viabilty,' not 'check viabilty...'

WL vials say this:

Pwned.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

I said 'increase viabilty,' not 'check viabilty...'

WL vials say this:

Pwned.

View attachment 45448



View attachment 45449

owned? really? like i said, the guy who own's the company that made that vial say otherwise in the book "Yeast". read it yet? i know what that vial says, and i know that it's not accurate. as do many other brewers.
i guess what i'm 'owning' is the knowledge of proper pitch rates and the ability to not under pitch my beers. i'll take that.

what do you own, LastSecond?

 

[steelerfanatic7]

I have a paxket of english ale yeast. Would it be Ok to put that in with the irish ale yeast?

 

[lastsecondapex]

owned? really? like i said, the guy who own's the company that made that vial say otherwise in the book "Yeast". read it yet? i know what that vial says, and i know that it's not accurate. as do many other brewers.
i guess what i'm 'owning' is the knowledge of proper pitch rates and the ability to not under pitch my beers. i'll take that.

what do you own, LastSecond?

I own some recipes for some great brews, but regardless, OP, you're beer will be most-likely fine.

 

[flabyboy]

The white labs labels are notoriously wrong in their pitch rate and temps

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

I own some recipes for some great brews, but regardless, OP, you're beer will be most-likely fine.

recipes don't make beer, brewers use recipes to make wort. then they add yeast and the yeast makes beer. see where this is going yet?

 

[ChillWill]

I said 'increase viabilty,' not 'check viabilty...'

WL vials say this:

Pwned.

<img src="https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=45448"/>

<img src="https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=45449"/>

Viability is the % of live yeast, not the quantity.

So, although when you make a starter it's not to increase viability, it's to grow more cells (which in turn increases viability as they're fresh, live cells).

For this batch, if you're still under 24 hours in, I'd oxygenate it again to try and get the population up.

If you can get more yeast I'd throw a couple more vials in; although tbh I'd not be in this situation.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Viability is the % of live yeast, not the quantity.

So, although when you make a starter it's not to increase viability, it's to grow more cells (which in turn increases viability as they're fresh, live cells).

For this batch, if you're still under 24 hours in, I'd oxygenate it again to try and get the population up.

If you can get more yeast I'd throw a couple more vials in; although tbh I'd not be in this situation.

the OP asked about adding a different strain at this point, what do you think? (you're experience seems better and more in depth than mine, from what i've seen you post) i think it wouldn't hurt, but i'd try to use the same strain as originally pitched.

 

[steelerfanatic7]

I am gonna go to the lhbs and get some more of the same strain. I know the sooner the better on pitching but what is the latest? Withon 24 hours of original pitching?

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

I am gonna go to the lhbs and get some more of the same strain. I know the sooner the better on pitching but what is the latest? Withon 24 hours of original pitching?

that sounds like the best plan. if you can, get a small starter going and pitch it once it gets really active. you're pretty early on in fermentation with this brew, so you should be good.

 

[steelerfanatic7]

that sounds like the best plan. if you can, get a small starter going and pitch it once it gets really active. you're pretty early on in fermentation with this brew, so you should be good.

How long would it take to get really active do you think?

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

How long would it take to get really active do you think?

there's no saying, really. i'm guessing you'll be going with the 'intermittent shaking' method of making a starter, IME that takes several hours or more (usually within 12) to really get going. when you shake the starter, it will foam up on top, i'd say once it's foaming well, it's good and active. but the longer you keep shaking, and the more it foams, the more the yeast will reproduce, giving you more cells to pitch. FWIW, i made a 1.2L starter (w/1272) last night, it was mildly active in a few hours, very active when i woke up this morning, about 10 hours after pitching it. i've also noticed some of the english strains (like 1084) will be more active and kick off faster than some american strains.

 

[steelerfanatic7]

Ok thanks i think thats what i will do.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Ok thanks i think thats what i will do.

cool, keep us posted. i was thinking, because it's a big a$$ brew, and you'll undoubtedly be leaving it for awhile before bottling, a lot of the stressed yeast flavors will be cleaned up by the yeast after fermentation, and with bulk aging, the brew should be fine.

 

[steelerfanatic7]

Yea in gonna do a week in primary and 9 months in secondary before bottling.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Yea in gonna do a week in primary and 9 months in secondary before bottling.

i'm leaving mine in primary for 4-6 weeks before moving to secondary for aging until august. mine went from OG to 1.023 in 6 days at 64 degrees, but i'm just gonna leave it to clean up for a bit before moving it from the main cake for aging.

 

[steelerfanatic7]

i'm leaving mine in primary for 4-6 weeks before moving to secondary for aging until august. mine went from OG to 1.023 in 6 days at 64 degrees, but i'm just gonna leave it to clean up for a bit before moving it from the main cake for aging.

Oh ok maybe i will give mine a few more weeks on the main cake

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Oh ok maybe i will give mine a few more weeks on the main cake

i figure it can't hurt and if i'm planning to bulk age it for months, there's no need to rush it out of primary. this is my first crack at a RIS, and my goal is to have a great one ready for next fall and winter, when i do the bulk of my imperial stout drinkin'. :rockin:

 

[steelerfanatic7]

i figure it can't hurt and if i'm planning to bulk age it for months, there's no need to rush it out of primary. this is my first crack at a RIS, and my goal is to have a great one ready for next fall and winter, when i do the bulk of my imperial stout drinkin'. :rockin:

Hell yeah! I was thinking about adding a vanilla bean in with the oak chips when i transfer to secondary, what do you think?