First BIAB Attempt - Sanity Check

[ThatGeekGuy]

Go to Home Depot, pick up 2 white food-grade 5g buckets and drill a bunch of 3/16-1/4" holes in the bottom of one of them. Nest the drilled bucket inside the other bucket. Mash as normal with as much water as you can fit in your kettle, then pull the bag o' grains, set it inside the bucket with bag draped over the side, pour cold water over the top of grain, which will drain thru the holes into the catch bucket below. Dump sparged wort into kettle. Total cost would be about $8. Or, if you have an extra Ale Pail, use that as your catch bucket and just pick up one 5g bucket for drilling holes. Sparging with this method, coupled with a decent crush, will net you 80-85% efficiency.

If you have a third bucket, you can use it to push down on the grain bag and squeeze out even more worty goodness....

 

[LLBeanJ]

That would be great if you could.

Can I duplicate the "Single Infusion, Medium Body, No Mash Out" and adjust to include a batch sparge?

Will do.

You can try. Maybe you'll have better luck. I played with it a little and wasn't able to make it work, but I really didn't work at if for too long. Let me know if you get it to calculate the sparge volume correctly. It seems to me if I recall correctly, if you check the BIAB full-volume checkbox, the sparge options are greyed out. Unchecking it allows sparge options, but I couldn't just tell it that I wanted, for example, a 2g sparge. Either the sparge volume wasn't quite right or it was just more hassle than I felt it was worth.

 

[LLBeanJ]

If you have a third bucket, you can use it to push down on the grain bag and squeeze out even more worty goodness....

Yes!

I don't do this myself, but this was utilized in the original HBT thread that I shamelessly lifted the bucket-in-a-bucket idea from.

 

[geoffm33]

I created a mash profile and an equipment profile that I hope is heading me in the right direction. For the mash profile, I disregarded the BIAB and Sparge settings entirely and added a mash and sparge step that compliment my equipment profile.

While tweaking these profiles I kept an eye on the "Sparge Vol" field (select fields, add "Sparge Vol"). This value appears to be sort of a top-off value that is the difference between your mash profile, your equipment profile and grain absorption. I could be wrong.

If anyone is interested in loading those two profiles into BS2 and seeing if it looks sound I would appreciate it.

If you are, here is a recap of why I created the profiles as I did:

- I have a 7.5 gallon aluminum pot
- I want to do 5 - 5.5 gallon AG batches
- I plan to batch sparge in a bottling bucket as recommended upthread (hot or cold, I am undecided!)
- Recombine the sparge with the wort in the 7.5 gallon pot at pre-boil volume

I'm obviously not reinventing the wheel here, this seems to be a pretty common BIAB process. I just wasn't able to figure out how to replicate the process in BS2.

Thanks!

View attachment mash.bsmx

View attachment equipment.bsmx

 

[unionrdr]

I've noticed that BS2 def takes some conciderable snake-eyed concentration. A lot of variables depending on AE,PM or AG. then style of beer. Then style of brewing,single double triple,stage. Mash out or no. Type of equipment & related volumes. I haven't had it but a month or two,& I'm still tweakin...

 

[LLBeanJ]

Looks like you're on your way. I'll play around with your BS profiles when I get home tonight.

 

[geoffm33]

I've noticed that BS2 def takes some conciderable snake-eyed concentration. A lot of variables depending on AE,PM or AG. then style of beer. Then style of brewing,single double triple,stage. Mash out or no. Type of equipment & related volumes. I haven't had it but a month or two,& I'm still tweakin...

Yeah, and to an extract brewer trying to setup profiles....it's tweakin' me

My best bet is to ignore the volumes for the most part in BS2 until I have done some using my setup. Just figure the volumes in Excel/online calcs. Then once I understand what I am doing (instead of following steps out of a book) I'll grasp the intricacies of the program.

 

[geoffm33]

Looks like you're on your way. I'll play around with your BS profiles when I get home tonight.

Thanks LLBeanJ!

 

[unionrdr]

Yeah, and to an extract brewer trying to setup profiles....it's tweakin' me

My best bet is to ignore the volumes for the most part in BS2 until I have done some using my setup. Just figure the volumes in Excel/online calcs. Then once I understand what I am doing (instead of following steps out of a book) I'll grasp the intricacies of the program.

Well,You can set boil volumes & such. That's pretty easy. But down on the lower half where the graph is,you set the beer style,mash,carbonation & fermentation style from a drop down list of choices. Then,on the right,you have to input "measured OG. You can also,on the upper half recipe part,input type,batch size,boil time,Est pre-boil volume(after sparge). Hope these help a bit...

 

[LLBeanJ]

I've found that the biggest variables for BIAB, at least when just getting started, are efficiency and boiloff rate. Hopefully, you already know pretty much what your boiloff rate is from you extract batches. Unless you have your own mill and can set your crush however you want, I'd aim for middle of the road efficiency, say 70-75%. It all depends on how you want to be off, i.e., if you undershoot, are you okay with a lower than expected OG? Whereas if you overshoot, you will have a higher OG. Set efficiency at 75% for the former and 70% for the latter, and then tweak it against actuals on your next brew. I typically aim low and take the higher OG when my efficiency surprises me to the high side, even when I'm expecting 85%.

If you plan on squeezing the grain bag to extract as much wort as possible, you can figure volume lost to absorption to be about .05g/lb, otherwise expect .75. Dead space in the mash tun should be 0 for BIAB and I set the trub loss in the kettle to 0, since I dump it all into the fermentor post-boil, though I do run it through a strainer.

Also, make sure you have a way to measure volume in the kettle (I use a wooden spoon with notches on the handle at every gallon)and be sure to take a pre-boil gravity reading. Besides knowing where you stand gravity and volume-wise pre-boil, it gives you the option of adding more water to bring down a high OG or increase the boil time to raise a low OG, if you so desire. Once you become confident in your efficiency and can come pretty close to hitting your numbers every time, you can forego the pre-boil gravity reading. Knowing all the variables is how you dial your system in so that BeerSmith's numbers become reliable for your equipment and process.

 

[unionrdr]

I don't do pre-boil gravity yet. But I did learn that you have to input measured OG. That'll also help in the future,among other little settings & tweaks.

 

[tre9er]

Man, it's really pretty easy. You lose water due to:

Grain absorption
Boiloff
Trub/hops loss

The latter is generally not much, and depends on how much trub you decide to move into the fermenter. You can call it 0.5G or whatever, then just leave that much in the kettle every time.

Boiloff is what it is, no matter the recipe. It's x gallons per hour. Most of the time it's around 1g/hr but narrow pots boil off less. My keggle boils about 0.85g/hr with a narrow opening in it (10").

Absorption with BIAB depends on how much you squeeze/wait for the drippings. I use 0.11g/lb and it served me well. With AG I use 0.15, I think the default in my spreadsheet program was 0.19.

That's it. Batch size-trub loss-boiloff-absorption=total water needed. Decide how much you want to use for mash and sparge however you want. I mash thin, generally I mash with 7g of water for my 9-9.25g batches and sparge with whatever's left. That means my mash thickness changes from 1.7 to 2, for instance, depending on how much grain I use. I hit 80% efficiency every. single. time. My crush and mash tun haven't changed and that seems to be what get's me consistent results. The volumes, temps, etc. don't matter one bit.

So just to keep it simple, think of it as I've stated. Or blow off what I've said and go your own way! You gotta find your path.

 

[geoffm33]

Man, it's really pretty easy. You lose water due to:

Grain absorption
Boiloff
Trub/hops loss

The latter is generally not much, and depends on how much trub you decide to move into the fermenter. You can call it 0.5G or whatever, then just leave that much in the kettle every time.

Boiloff is what it is, no matter the recipe. It's x gallons per hour. Most of the time it's around 1g/hr but narrow pots boil off less. My keggle boils about 0.85g/hr with a narrow opening in it (10").

Absorption with BIAB depends on how much you squeeze/wait for the drippings. I use 0.11g/lb and it served me well. With AG I use 0.15, I think the default in my spreadsheet program was 0.19.

That's it. Batch size-trub loss-boiloff-absorption=total water needed. Decide how much you want to use for mash and sparge however you want. I mash thin, generally I mash with 7g of water for my 9-9.25g batches and sparge with whatever's left. That means my mash thickness changes from 1.7 to 2, for instance, depending on how much grain I use. I hit 80% efficiency every. single. time. My crush and mash tun haven't changed and that seems to be what get's me consistent results. The volumes, temps, etc. don't matter one bit.

So just to keep it simple, think of it as I've stated. Or blow off what I've said and go your own way! You gotta find your path.

Thanks. I understand all that, I'm just trying to get the beer smith profiles setup to reflect the above and dial in the system.

 

[LLBeanJ]

My BS2 sample profiles attached.

View attachment LLBeanJ_8GalBK_BIAB.bsmx

View attachment LLBeanJ_MashMedBody_BIAB.bsmx

 

[LLBeanJ]

I created a mash profile and an equipment profile that I hope is heading me in the right direction. For the mash profile, I disregarded the BIAB and Sparge settings entirely and added a mash and sparge step that compliment my equipment profile.

While tweaking these profiles I kept an eye on the "Sparge Vol" field (select fields, add "Sparge Vol"). This value appears to be sort of a top-off value that is the difference between your mash profile, your equipment profile and grain absorption. I could be wrong.

If anyone is interested in loading those two profiles into BS2 and seeing if it looks sound I would appreciate it.

If you are, here is a recap of why I created the profiles as I did:

- I have a 7.5 gallon aluminum pot
- I want to do 5 - 5.5 gallon AG batches
- I plan to batch sparge in a bottling bucket as recommended upthread (hot or cold, I am undecided!)
- Recombine the sparge with the wort in the 7.5 gallon pot at pre-boil volume

I'm obviously not reinventing the wheel here, this seems to be a pretty common BIAB process. I just wasn't able to figure out how to replicate the process in BS2.

Thanks!

Okay, I just spent a little time playing around with your profiles. You're on the right track, just need to tweak some things. I've circled the settings that need attention.

In the equipment profile, the Mash Tun Volume should equal your kettle size. You can make it a little smaller if you don't want BS to assume you can fill it to the very top.
Loss to Trub and Chiller will vary depending on your process. If you dump it all in like I do, then the value is 0. If you whirlpool and drain, you'll leave some wort behind. You'll need to figure out how much and enter it here.
Fermentor Loss is how much beer you leave behind in the fermentor. I've never measured mine, but I use .5g. It's probably a little more than that, but I don't consider it a big deal.
Boil Off - Self explanatory. Enter your boil off rate/hr. Check the box to use B/O as an hourly rate.

The mash profile is pretty straightforward...
I like to set my Mash Tun Temp = to the first rest temp. It's minor, but it will affect the infusion temperature.
Also not a big deal, but set your Boiling Temp to whatever it is at your elevation. If at sea level, 212 is correct. I'm at 5000', so for me it's 203.
The last one is the checkbox for BIAB. I messed around with this one and found that if you check it, and add an infusion step for sparge (like you had), the initial step volume will change based on how much volume you input for the sparge step. As I said earlier, I don't bother with a sparge step in the profile and just mentally subtract the sparge from the total water volume needed at dough-in, but you can do it this way. The way you had it (without the box checked), I didn't see the first step volume automatically update when the sparge size was changed.

Anyway, I hope this helps. Once you get all your variables set correctly in the software, the numbers it spits out are typically pretty reliable.

 

[geoffm33]

Thanks LLBeanJ! I made those changes and it looks like everything is tied up nicely. When I apply those profiles I don't have any value in the "Sparge Vol" which I was thinking was evidence that my profiles were out of synch.

 

[LLBeanJ]

That makes sense. If you do it the way I suggested, BS doesn't think you're sparging at all because all of your mash volume is consumed by the two infusion steps (even though the 2nd one is named "Sparge", BS thinks it's just another mash step, and by checking the BIAB box, BS is working as if it's no-sparge), hence, nothing left for "Sparge Vol" to return. The benefit is that you can directly input your sparge volume and BS will compensate your initial step volume for you. You have a couple of ways to approach it now, so do whatever makes the most sense for you.

 

[geoffm33]

Thanks to everyone that responded in thread. Much appreciated! I feel like I have a good handle on the process and now Beersmith as well. We'll see how my Father's Day Centennial Blonde (Biermuncher) brew goes.

 

[geoffm33]

So after all this discussion, I bought a 10 gal kettle and planned to do tomorrows brew as a full volume BIAB.

Well, I just realized (and tested) that my paint strainer bag is far too small for my new kettle! Fits fine on my 7.5 gal.

So I'll mash in the 7.5, dunk sparge in the 10 gal then combine in the 10 for the boil.

Then I'll be ordering a custom bag from wilserbrewer!

 

[geoffm33]

So, here is how my first BIAB brewday went.

• Brought 17.2qt of water up to 157° in my 7.5 Gallon kettle

• Doughed in with my 8.2lbs of grain

• Mashed for 60 minutes, consistent 150° throughout

• Brought 9qt of water up to about 150° (timed to coincide with end of mash) in my 10 Gallon kettle

• Pulled bag from mash and let drip drain.

• Dunk sparged in the 10 Gallon kettle stirring periodically for 10 minutes.

• Pulled bag and set it on collander otop of 7.5 Gallon kettle, pressed it with a glass sauce pan cover.

• Combined collected wort into the 10 Gallon kettle and gave it a thorough stir

• Measured gravity to be 1.034 (temp corrected) which is 6 points low from BeerSmith estimate. Giving me a 68.8% efficiency.

• Added .68 lbs of DME per some calculator I found on the internet

• Boiled for 60 minutes with hop additions, etc.

• Took OG at 1.044, 3 points shy of BeerSmith estimate.


All in all a pretty good brew day.

Few questions:

1) I crushed my own grains (first time). How does the crush look? There were no noticeable uncrushed grains.

2) Anything in my process above that would account for the lower than I was expecting efficiency? I had setup my BS profile for an 80% efficiency. Was that my main problem? If I had set it lower I would have had more grain to compensate?

3) Do I add the DME addition to my BeerSmith brew day file, and if so, where? I added it in the notes so I would have record of it, but should it go into the ingredients list?

 

[unionrdr]

Yes,the DME is yet another thing in the ingredients list. LME,sugars,adjuncts,etc. I have my barley crusher mill set at the factory .039". looks like broken kernals. Yours has husks seperated,but that should be a good thing to my understanding?...

 

[freisste]

Did you rinse the grains or just squeeze them? I squeeze, rinse, repeat about 3-5 times depending on the color of what's coming out.

 

[geoffm33]

I only dunked in a separate vessel with about 2.5 gal. Dunked/stirred then squeezed. Will probably rinse next time instead or in addition to.

 

[geoffm33]

Yes,the DME is yet another thing in the ingredients list. LME,sugars,adjuncts,etc. I have my barley crusher mill set at the factory .039". looks like broken kernals. Yours has husks seperated,but that should be a good thing to my understanding?...

From what I gather, the motto is to not fear the flour. Tighten up the mill until you are nervous, then go another turn.

 

[dstranger99]

I don't think your brew day was too bad, it looks like your gonna have a 4.46 % ABV providing the FG is 1.010

 

[geoffm33]

I don't think your brew day was too bad, it looks like your gonna have a 4.46 % ABV providing the FG is 1.010

Thanks! That's what I figure as well. I think my expectations were too high for first time AG efficiency. If I had just plugged 70 or 72% into Beer Smith, I would have had a larger grain bill and may have hit my numbers.

I'll still have beer, hopefully good beer, but beer with alcohol in at at any rate.

 

[dstranger99]

^

I've been doing this for quite awhile and I still for the life of me cannot hit the numbers, I'm always a few points low. I did a Fathers day batch, SG should have been 1.060, I got 1.056. I'm still looking at a 5.25% ABV though.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Your crush looks good, so I don't think you have a problem there. Even without the sparge you should be able to hit 80%. Did you stir the mash at all during the 60 minute rest? I don't insulate my kettle at all during the mash, so maintaining temps is a bit of a challenge. To compensate, I check the temp every 15 minutes and fire up the burner for a few minutes each time to bring it back up to temp, stirring the entire time that the heat is being applied. Also, I do a 75m mash with most recipes, and though I know it's not always required, I still do it for the sake of consistency. At 150 for 60m, perhaps you did not get complete conversion and that contributed to your lower than expected efficiency.

 

[geoffm33]

Your crush looks good, so I don't think you have a problem there. Even without the sparge you should be able to hit 80%. Did you stir the mash at all during the 60 minute rest? I don't insulate my kettle at all during the mash, so maintaining temps is a bit of a challenge. To compensate, I check the temp every 15 minutes and fire up the burner for a few minutes each time to bring it back up to temp, stirring the entire time that the heat is being applied. Also, I do a 75m mash with most recipes, and though I know it's not always required, I still do it for the sake of consistency. At 150 for 60m, perhaps you did not get complete conversion and that contributed to your lower than expected efficiency.

I had the kettle wrapped in towels, and checked the temp every 15 minutes and stirred. It's entirely possible that my stirring wasn't as effective as it should have been. ie: I just mixed it a bit instead of making sure I had even temp throughout the kettle.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Next time, try going 75m on the mash and do some more stirring. Can't imagine this will get you from high-60s to 80%, but it can't hurt. I'm thinking your main issue is the paint strainer bag. Specifically, it's just too small, so it doesn't allow enough free flow of water movement around and through the grains. The bag should be large enough that your entire kettle can fit inside it. I think you'll see better results when you get that new bag from Wilserbrewer.