First beer

[Bomber fridgmenter]

Thanks for the reply.
I would hate to take something the wrong way and miss judge a persons intentions, so just wanted to clarify if the reply was meant to be patronising or be playful and in jest (banter).
i suspect the later, as I see you are a moderator on the forum and so are here to ensure and uphold a civil means of communication and information sharing.
just wanted to confirm, so that I may take any further interactions in the right way.

Awesome forum by the way. Very helpful and insightful for people wishing to learn new skills.

 

[IslandLizard]

so just wanted to clarify if the reply was meant to be patronising or be playful and in jest (banter).

Totally meant to be playful, all in jest!

If it made you feel the other way, I hereby apologize.

I wasn't trying to mock you, or any other beginning homebrewer.
I thought the painted scenario would be over the top enough...
Honestly, in my early brewing days I was fixated on checking gravity during fermentation, for not to miss the "right moment" to rack to the awaiting secondary (filled with air, and, yup, too large).

We homebrewers start out as complete novices, a new world opening up before us, having its own language. Us, homebrewers, feeling the need to be "in control" as much as we can, or the beer would fail miserably, we tend to follow certain instructions* much too closely (e.g., taking samples, racking to a secondary**). While other, more important ones are left out or inadvertently recede to the background (e.g., ferm temp control, air/oxygen exposure).

* Many of those preconceived ideas stem from (notoriously outdated) kit instructions.
Some instructions now mention the "racking to secondary" process as being optional. Yeah...

** Racking is not a novice process. It takes time and lots of practice to learn how to do it properly, without introducing air (oxygen). One can train using a bucket of Starsan.

 

[Bomber fridgmenter]

Hi thanks for the reply.
I had suspected it to be jest full and had taken it that way, however thought I should check just to ensure I hadn’t inadvertently upset someone by reaching out for good information from experienced guys.
I have obviously come across in a different way to I had intended.
I have asked an number of questions regarding the validity of the manufactures instructions and if there were in-fact better ways to work, from those with the information and experience.
At no point am I attempting to rush, on the contrary having been told that 3 weeks would be a much better time frame for yeast health and beer quality, that immediately became my time frame.
Regarding FG, there appears to be differing opinions on wether it is worth the risk of oxygen contamination or not. It appears to me that it depends on set up and risk management. Currently I only have the option of taking a sample via a wine thief. I asked if for future brews if it beneficial to fit a spigot in the FV to allow a low risk method to draw samples at the end of fermentation to ensure the yeast has finished. This appears to be a recommended option.
I learn by asking questions and receiving answers that can be explained and make sense. I have been extremely grateful for the response and knowledge I have received so far and already building good information on how to make subtle changes on the next batch to reduce the risks of certain unwanted out comes. I see information sharing as a means of shortcutting errors by learning from those that have made mistakes in the past and trying not to make those errors yourself.
so much to learn but extremely enjoyable journey.
so thanks to all those that are helping to perpetuate my learning experience.

 

[IslandLizard]

the yeast pack is 10g and just says “old ale” on it.

That's a 20-23 liter batch, right?
What's the expected original gravity (OG)? Old Ales are strong (high gravity) beers, 1.080 and higher, typically.

I'm asking, because that 10 grams of yeast would be a bit skimpy for that batch. You definitely want to ferment it toward the lower temps for the yeast. I'd pitch 2 of those packages, even more so as there is no date on it and it wasn't stored refrigerated.
Could you get another package of yeast of the same, or something like Fermentis S-04?

Do you have an external temp controller on your fermentation fridge? Is the sensor/probe attached to the side of your fermenter, and covered by a piece of 1/4" packaging foam?

 

[eric19312]

Hi @IslandLizard these Festival kits are skimpy on the information provided. No OG mentioned but it is not a 1.080 kit. Here is what I found. I am pretty sure @Bomber fridgmenter got it right guessing OG is about 1.050. That 10 gram yeast packet was probably plenty.

What's Included?

• 3kg Premium Liquid Malt Extract
• Genuine Brewer's Yeast Strains
• Hop Pellets Addition (Target & Summit)
• 500g Dextrose Brewing Sugar
• 100g Priming Sugar

Allergy Advice: May include barley and other cereals, containing gluten


Specifications

• Kit weight : 3.5kg
• Makes: 40 pints / 5 gallons
• ABV Approx: 5%
• Target Finishing Gravity: 1.011 (approx)
• Fermentation time: 7 days (approx)

 

[Bomber fridgmenter]

Yep that’s spot on. Had to try and work the OG back from FG and ABV.
10 days in today and fermentation seems to have dramatically slowed( according to bubbler which I understand is not a good indicator). I may dry hop today and just poor in the top loose as I want to try and minimise the potential of oxygen ingress that may occur with hoping in a weighted bag. Also thoughts are that if I leave any longer there is the possibility that there won’t be enough CO2 created to replace the air in the top of the FV, and it still has a further 10 days to sit before racking taking it to the 20-21 days.

 

[IslandLizard]

Hi @IslandLizard these Festival kits are skimpy on the information provided. No OG mentioned but it is not a 1.080 kit. Here is what I found. I am pretty sure @Bomber fridgmenter got it right guessing OG is about 1.050. That 10 gram yeast packet was probably plenty.

Thanks for the legwork and info.
I guess it's more like an Old Peculiar then. Yeah, 10 grams of yeast is fine for those.

 

[IslandLizard]

it still has a further 10 days to sit before racking taking it to the 20-21 days.

Are you indicating to rack it to a secondary? Or a bottling bucket, to bottle it?

What kind of fermenter are you using? A glass carboy?
Although I agree, 10 days is a bit long for dry hopping, it's probably not a boat load of hops, 1 oz maybe? I'd rather leave them in longer than risk oxidizing when racking to a secondary. Or alternatively, drop the dry hops in 3 days before bottling. Do it quickly.

 

[Bomber fridgmenter]

straight into a bottling bucket onto the priming sugar, Then bottle.
FV is a 25l plastic bucket, hence the idea to fit a spigot into it before the next batch to allow safer testing if required.
I may manage to add the hop pellets through the bubbler grommet which will require far less risk than opening a 16” lid.

 

[Bomber fridgmenter]

Just looked at it is 50g (2oz) of hops.

 

[Bomber fridgmenter]

Thanks for the legwork and info.
I guess it's more like an Old Peculiar then. Yeah, 10 grams of yeast is fine for those.

Will be nice if it’s similar to old peculiar.
the next kit I have apparently is very close to Adnams broad side. That will get started when this one is bottled or after the first 2 weeks of conditioning is complete. Depending on wether I can get 40 bottles and a FV in the fermentation fridge at the same time. I will also be applying what I have learnt so far when starting the new batch.

 

[BrewZer]

For future reference, you can always pull up a recipe app and enter approximates for the kit you're brewing to see what kind of OG to expect. I realize that in some kits, that'll be hard to do because you get a can of LME labeled "Malt Extract," a bag of hops labeled "hops" and a pack of yeast labeled "yeast." But it shouldn't take too much research to figure out that the malt is Amber LME, the hops are Northern Brewer or Goldings, and the yeast is British Ale based on the beer style the kit is trying to emulate.

 

[Bomber fridgmenter]

That’s really interesting. I will certainly look into that. Thanks.

 

[Bomber fridgmenter]

For future reference, you can always pull up a recipe app and enter approximates for the kit you're brewing to see what kind of OG to expect. I realize that in some kits, that'll be hard to do because you get a can of LME labeled "Malt Extract," a bag of hops labeled "hops" and a pack of yeast labeled "yeast." But it shouldn't take too much research to figure out that the malt is Amber LME, the hops are Northern Brewer or Goldings, and the yeast is British Ale based on the beer style the kit is trying to emulate.

Just as a matter of interest, are there any apps you would recommend.

 

[BrewZer]

I use brewtarget because it's free and sits on my box, but a lot of folks around here like Brewer's Friend or Beersmith.

 

[Bomber fridgmenter]

I use brewtarget because it's free and sits on my box, but a lot of folks around here like Brewer's Friend or Beersmith.

I have brewers friend. Just need to learn how to use it. That’s actually the calculator I used to back calculate the OG of this batch.

 

[ncbrewer]

Regarding FG, there appears to be differing opinions on wether it is worth the risk of oxygen contamination or not.

In case it hasn't become obvious already (it probably has), I'll pass along that differing opinions are the norm with brewing. You can find lively discussions about almost any aspect of brewing - whether to take an FG sample, whether to rehydrate dry yeast, how to dry pitch if you don't rehydrate, whether to transfer to secondary, and dozens of other topics. Enjoy the journey.

 

[Bomber fridgmenter]

In case it hasn't become obvious already (it probably has), I'll pass along that differing opinions are the norm with brewing. You can find lively discussions about almost any aspect of brewing - whether to take an FG sample, whether to rehydrate dry yeast, how to dry pitch if you don't rehydrate, whether to transfer to secondary, and dozens of other topics. Enjoy the journey.

Couldn’t agree more. All are good options/ opinions, and I would think this greatly linked to setups and styles of brewing. The art is understanding the merits of each, the pros and cons with regard to the situation they will be used, and then chose an option that has the greatest chance of giving the desired outcome with the smallest risk.
With greater knowledge there also comes the ability to adjust the equipment to allow favourable techniques that previously were too risky/ unavailable.
currently there are suggestions and information, that appear in my mind, to give me the greatest opportunity of a positive out come with the equipment and set up I currently have. I can understand how following guidance limits the potential risks. With that in mind I’m trying to follow the same ideas when it comes to hopping to limit/ eliminate air ingress. Hence the idea to drop the hop pellets through the hole in the bubbler bung( if they will fit) to eliminate the requirement to open a 16” lid.
i currently don’t see a way to sample for FG that would not risk oxygen ingress. Thus I’m following the 21day fermentation advice and only take a sample on bottling day and hope it’s down to the 1.011.

 

[IslandLizard]

I may manage to add the hop pellets through the bubbler grommet which will require far less risk than opening a 16” lid.

That's the best! Avoid lifting the lid at all times.

i currently don’t see a way to sample for FG that would not risk oxygen ingress. Thus I’m following the 21day fermentation advice and only take a sample on bottling day and hope it’s down to the 1.011.

You can also take samples through that same airlock hole, by siphoning some out with a skinny hose. Sure, there will be some air getting in, but much, much less than by removing the lid.
But basically one sample should suffice, to verify you reached FG, 3 days before you intent to bottle, and could coincide with dry hopping. For all security take a second one, right before you prepare to bottle. If it matches the first, you're good to go.

 

[Bomber fridgmenter]

That's the best! Avoid lifting the lid at all times.


You can also take samples through that same airlock hole, by siphoning some out with a skinny hose. Sure, there will be some air getting in, but much, much less than by removing the lid.
But basically one sample should suffice, to verify you reached FG, 3 days before you intent to bottle, and could coincide with dry hopping. For all security take a second one, right before you prepare to bottle. If it matches the first, you're good to go.

That’s an awesome idea about sampling through the bung. Hadn’t thought of that.

 

[IslandLizard]

That’s an awesome idea about sampling through the bung. Hadn’t thought of that.

Here is the process in detail.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/stalled-or-finished-very-high.690298/post-9067487
BTW, you can collect fermentation CO2 into a mylar balloon. Then use that to supply CO2 during cold crashing.
That is, if your bucket lid seals tight enough.

 

[faithie999]

if you fit your fermentation bucket with a spigot, remember that when you sample for FG, remove the airlock else you'll suck the liquid in the airlock into the fermenter.
I have been brewing for years and have never worried about oxygen intrusion, but with all the attention on it these days I have stopped racking to secondary, and will get a couple of mylar balloons to have on hand for next fermentation. process improvement is always a good thing.

 

[Bomber fridgmenter]

if you fit your fermentation bucket with a spigot, remember that when you sample for FG, remove the airlock else you'll suck the liquid in the airlock into the fermenter.
I have been brewing for years and have never worried about oxygen intrusion, but with all the attention on it these days I have stopped racking to secondary, and will get a couple of mylar balloons to have on hand for next fermentation. process improvement is always a good thing.

Funny you mention the airlock sucking back. I made the mistake on brew day of fitting the airlock before I moved the FV. When I lifted it it pulled 50% of the liquid out of the airlock straight onto the beer. Lesson learnt for next time.

The ballon technique I thought to be a really interesting and clever idea. I will have to get a couple next time I’m in the supermarket. I take it you just attach it to a piece of hose and fit that in the airlock bung. Potential after the first few days of aggressive fermentation.

 

[faithie999]

balloons are cheaper at Dollar Tree. "everything is a dollar". the dollar tree where my folks live carries the Sunday paper, which costs about $6. I made the mistake of asking the clerk how much it cost. she looked at me very indignantly and said "EVERYTHING IS A DOLLAR".

 

[IslandLizard]

The ballon technique I thought to be a really interesting and clever idea. I will have to get a couple next time I’m in the supermarket. I take it you just attach it to a piece of hose and fit that in the airlock bung. Potential after the first few days of aggressive fermentation.

There are a bunch of posts on fitting a helium balloon to capture and dispense fermentation CO2. Do a search.

One thing that was pointed out, some (or most) of those balloons have a built-in (check) valve, that needs to be removed. I also read that there was an obnoxious smell inside such balloon. So maybe air it out for a couple of days.

 

[Bomber fridgmenter]

Update. Decided as fermentation looks like it’s getting very slow, decided to dry hope. Thinking being, that if there is still a little CO2 being produced it will replace any oxygen that may be introduced to the top of the FV.
Had to pop one side of the lid and shoot the hop pellets straight in. Then resealed the lid. While the bubbler was removed, I slid a sanitised racking cane through the bung and drew a sample into the trial jar.
SG is currently 1.015. Target is 1.011 so possibly a little way to go. Tasted the beer from the trial jar. Overall tasted nice. A little hoppy, a little sweetness and I would say just a trace of fruit/ banana but very minimal. It was also slightly fizzy/zingy on the tongue. Not sure if that’s yeast or CO2.
Plan now is to leave it till next weekend, then possibly get another sample as that appears to be fairly easy through the bung with minimal invasion.
Not sure if I should leave the temp were it is or increase it slowly over a few days towards 23C.
Your thoughts would be appreciated. Currently it’s sitting at 21C as it has been from the start.

 

[IslandLizard]

I slid a sanitised racking cane through the bung and drew a sample into the trial jar. [...]
possibly get another sample as that appears to be fairly easy through the bung with minimal invasion.

Just curious, how do you start the siphon?

 

[Bomber fridgmenter]

Just curious, how do you start the siphon?

I know where your going. lol
Sucked it but then lifted the cane out of the beer so direction of flow was always towards the trial jar. Very conscious of backward flow, and had a couple of practices first with the sanitiser to perfect technique and see what was going to happen.

 

[IslandLizard]

I know where your going. lol
Sucked it but then lifted the cane out of the beer so direction of flow was always towards the trial jar. Very conscious of backward flow, and had a couple of practices first with the sanitiser to perfect technique and see what was going to happen.

Lifting the cane out of the beer is the only way to stop the siphon and prevent backflow. That is, as long as the hose attached to the top of the cane ends below the bottom of the cane...

I've been using a 2' skinny piece of hose to do the same. That hose dwells on the bottom of my Starsan bucket.

 

[Bomber fridgmenter]

[QUOTE="IslandLizard, That hose dwells on the bottom of my Starsan bucket.
[/QUOTE]
Yep I’ve left mine in a 5l bucket with 1/2l of Chemsan in it.
Still can’t make my mind up wether the temperature should go up a little just to help the yeast finish off, or leave it were it is. I understand the temp rise will just boost the yeast a little. Not sure of the negatives associated with it and wether that outweighs the benefits.