First beer advice - True Brew Belgian Ale

[Hastein]

I will be brewing my first homebrew from a True Brew kit this weekend. After reading several old threads about True Brew kits and specifically their Belgian Ale kit, I plan to deviate from their instructions a bit. First, I was hoping some of you could possibly confirm what I will be doing is OK.

1. The instructions call for 1 week in the fermenter and then bottle. I believe its safe to say that this is the bare minimum and 2-3 weeks is better. Should I just mark the calendar for 3 weeks to the day and bottle? What exactly happens between week 2 and 3? Does this help to bring out more flavors?

2. There is no reference to temperature while fermenting. One thread said more of the Belgian flavors (for lack of better words) come out when it ferments at a warmer temp. I believe they said they fermented this kit close to 80 degrees. So...

What is the "ideal" temp for a belgian ale kit? I let my house get up to 78 during the day and around 72-74 at night (usually 74 at the min unless its really cool outside). Is it safe to just let this ferment wrapped up on the counter or is a 4-6 degree temp fluctuation harmful?

What is the "danger zone" for min/max temperature and range of fluctuations?

3. I've reached the conclusion it is better to steep the grains at a stable 150 for 30 min. rather than turning the flame off. Go for it at a steady 150 or kill the flame as the instructions call for?

Also, I saw a youtube video where someone put the grain in a strainer after steeping and rinsed them with water pre-heated to 150 in a separate kettle. Is it good to do this in order to get all the sugars out or is it not worth it?

Hopefully you all will forgive my noobness if I asked anything blatantly obvious. lol I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible while still brewing something I can be proud off for my first beer.

Thanks

 

[Soviet]

Great questions.

1. Yeast don't work on a brewer's schedule. Factors that affect fermentation time: temperature, wort original gravity, yeast strain, pressure, and a million other things. On average, my fermentations complete between 3-4 weeks, but I'm always watching the appearance of my wort in my carboy. When it looks like it has cleared, go ahead and give it another week to "clean up." This stage if fermentation is very important because the yeast absorbs all sort of off-flavor compounds like diacetyl and acetaldehyde. Taking your beer off the yeast too soon can lead to leaving those flavors in the beer.

2. Different strains of yeast ferment better at certain temperature ranges. Check out wyeast and white labs websites to get a recommended range for your yeast. The "Belgian Flavor" you're referring to comes from the signature phenolic flavor profile a lot of belgian yeasts have in common. The phenols the yeast produces are balanced by the esters it produces. Generally, more phenolics are produced at lower fermentation temperatures and while more esters are produced at higher temperatures. Many Belgian brewers start fermentation mid 60s and let it rise into the 70s.

3. Don't overthink it. Constant temps are needed for "mashing" grain. The steeping grain you're using does not require mashing (i.e. it has no starches to be converted to simple sugars). I'm guessing you're using a caramel/crystal malt which already has crystalized sugars that simply need to be dissolved in water. If there's any risk of burning/melting the strainer bag you're using, shut off the flame. Don't even worry about using a separate vessel/water.

 

[Hastein]

Thanks for the response. After reading it, I did something that I should have done before posting and searched for the yeast that came with my kit. It looks like the ideal range is between the mid-50s and 70s. (I have T-58) So, I think I will go ahead and hook the temp controller up to my freezer and set it for 68-70.

I can't wait to get started tomorrow. Oh..the excitement of my first beer.

 

[Soviet]

Focus on cleaning and sanitation. Focus next on pitching rate. If you're not making yeast starters, then buy the appropriate number of yeast packets. Your kit probably came with just one but that's only gonna be good for like 1.040 starting gravity beer or lower. If you have a local homebrew supply store, pickup the extra yeast you need. Pitching rate and yeast health is one of the largest factors that impact the flavor of your beer. Look at the date of packaging on your yeast packet. Post it here and let me know—I can help you estimate the viability of your yeast and how much yeast you need to pitch.

 

[Hastein]

Thanks. I can post all the info when I get home from work tonight. You are right, that it came with just a single packet.

 

[Hastein]

The expiration date is 04/2014. I don't see a date of packaging.

The packet is 11.5g and says it is good for 20-30 liters. So 5 gal is 19 liters...I should be good with the one pack?

 

[Soviet]

Oh, it is a dry yeast! In that case, what is the O.G. of your beer. (The packets say they're good for up to 30 liters but that's assuming a certain sugar content—let's find out what yours is)

 

[Hastein]

I don't know how I can find that out until after I make the wort. This kit is supposed to finish somewhere around 6% or a little higher, but I can't remember where I saw that. Don't know if that helps or not. I haven't read anything where people needed more than 1 packet for this kit, but I have seen where people substituted the T-58 for some other kind of yeast.

 

[Soviet]

according to this pitching rate calculator: http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html you can go to about 1.060 original gravity without needing more that 11.5g. The recipe for the kit itself should tell you all the parameters like O.G.= original gravity (or S.G = starting gravity). They wouldn't give you a recipe without those numbers. Sounds like you're set unless you're making a really big beer, in which case you might just need half another dry yeast pack. Good luck!

 

[Hastein]

I brewed it last Saturday and the OG was exactly 1.060. After hearing several people say their airlocks/lids, etc blew off with this beer kit, I did a little DIY blow-off tube from one of my airlocks. Well....it was a crappy blow-off tube and it popped off anyway. lol I caught it not long after it came off and fixed it. I had to wipe down the lid of my fermentation chamber, though.

 

[Soviet]

Did you use any sort of temp control?

 

[Hastein]

Yes I have a ferm. chamber I made out of a deep freeze and a ranco temp controller.

I checked it tonight with a really bright flashlight and you can see almost no light through it. Is this normal? It seems odd because the instructions say to bottle after 1 week, but it will be 1 week Saturday and it doesn't look even close to being ready.

I was planning to leave it in there for about 3 weeks before bottling anyway. Just seems odd...

 

[Soviet]

1. Yeast don't work on a brewer's schedule. Factors that affect fermentation time: temperature, wort original gravity, yeast strain, pressure, and a million other things. On average, my fermentations complete between 3-4 weeks, but I'm always watching the appearance of my wort in my carboy. When it looks like it has cleared, go ahead and give it another week to "clean up." This stage if fermentation is very important because the yeast absorbs all sort of off-flavor compounds like diacetyl and acetaldehyde. Taking your beer off the yeast too soon can lead to leaving those flavors in the beer.

It isn't odd. Don't worry about the instructions. They are for robots. See above.

 

[atreid]

One week for a Belgian is just silly really...

It's not true about the Phenols being stronger at lower temps. They are stronger at higher temperature to a point of getting to medicine taste, except that they are also partly masked but all those esters...

What is more traditional is to let it ferment at decently low temps during the hardcore part of primary fermentation, and THEN ramp up the temps a bit when sugars are almost depleted. This gives a chance to get those last gravity points down and dry out the beer a bit more. You won't get too much of the off flavors fermenting too high at this late stage. You'll get just enough... B-)

 

[Hastein]

Thanks for the reassurance, guys. I've got this one and some mead going at the same time and its been fun to watch how each of them progress.

 

[Soviet]

It's not true about the Phenols being stronger at lower temps. They are stronger at higher temperature to a point of getting to medicine taste, except that they are also partly masked but all those esters...

I stand corrected. The taste perception of phenolics is higher at lower fermentation temperatures, since ester production is reduced.

What is more traditional is to let it ferment at decently low temps during the hardcore part of primary fermentation, and THEN ramp up the temps a bit when sugars are almost depleted. This gives a chance to get those last gravity points down and dry out the beer a bit more. You won't get too much of the off flavors fermenting too high at this late stage. You'll get just enough... B-)

That's exactly what I wrote.... start low, and ramp up... is there an echo in here?

 

[Hastein]

Are there any downsides to carbonating the bottles at colder temps in the fermentation chamber while another beer is in there fermenting? Does it just take longer to finish carbonating? I'm thinking about starting up another batch after I bottle so it will be ready about the time I finish drinking the current one.

 

[atreid]

Soviet:
It's not only the perception of phenolics, it's really the production that's higher at higher temps along with most other byproducts.

and it's not an echo... They might have let it ramp up on itself "back in the days" because those guys didn't have temp controllers, plus they really mastered their process and knew their yeast strains very well.

With those workhorse belgian yeasts, it's hard to master the self-ramp-up temperature rise. During the 2-3-4 days of hardcore fermentation, I notice temps will often kick up very high even after a single day of fermentation. It leaves 2-3 more days with temps too high and off flavors release. My main point was: "...when sugars are almost depleted."... meaning you're almost out of active fermentation. Personaly I'd control the temps very well and stable during high krausen and get it higher by one degree Celcius every day when the Krausen starts to go down (up to 23-25 degrees Celcius depending on the strain). I think some people let it go even higher but I never tried it.


Hastein:
As for carbonating at cold temps, it's not a good idea. On the contrary, it's common to have Belgian bottles stored at 25-27 Celcius for several days to help yeast degrade the carbonation sugars. When you think carbonation is done, THEN it's good to store it cold for a week or two to help CO2 dissolve in beer.

 

[Hastein]

Hastein:
As for carbonating at cold temps, it's not a good idea. On the contrary, it's common to have Belgian bottles stored at 25-27 Celcius for several days to help yeast degrade the carbonation sugars. When you think carbonation is done, THEN it's good to store it cold for a week or two to help CO2 dissolve in beer.

OK, so do you think the best course of action for me is to let them sit on the shelf in the pantry (room temp will range from 23-27 Celcius) for a week and then put them back in the chamber and set it for between 2-3 Celcius for another week?

 

[atreid]

Almost there...

Carbonation can take several weeks, often more for strong beers (don't remember your ABV). I'd wait 3 weeks and then store one bottle in the fridge for 2-3 days and test it. If it's not right, give it another 2 weeks.

My fastest 9% tripel carbonation was when I added Champagne yeast right before bottling. Carbed in less than 2 weeks....

 

[Hastein]

The ABV is "supposed" to be 6% or slightly higher. My hydrometer read 1.06 OG, so my noob guess is it will finish around 1.01 making it around 6.5%. We shall see, though. I will do 3 weeks on the shelf and 3 days in the fridge as you recommend.

 

[atreid]

6% is a pretty mild Belgian and it shouldn't hurt the yeast too much so it might not even be necessary to carb higher than 20-22C. I'd taste it after 2 weeks.

Hell, I can't even restrain myself from testing after a single week so.... (usually it's a fail)...

 

[atreid]

Oh and the 1-2-3 days in fridge is only for the test bottle. It seems there are benefits from cold storage as long as 1-2 weeks.

 

[Hastein]

Haha, yes I am tempted to taste one after each week to observe the changes. I am actually pretty interested to taste the hydrometer sample I take before I bottle. My plan was to stock the fridge with tripels and blondes in order to keep the homebrew safe until its ready.

In this case, I suppose I will set the chamber to 70F (21C) and pull one out to put it in the fridge each week until they are ready. Once I have drank enough to keep them all in the fridge, freeing up the ferm. chamber, I will start the next brew.

 

[Soviet]

Soviet:
It's not only the perception of phenolics, it's really the production that's higher at higher temps along with most other byproducts.

Wrong. If you want to get technical, Phenolics are controlled by the yeast's ability to convert ferulic acid to phenolic compounds ("POF+" presence of phenolic off flavor gene) and the level of ferulic acid in the wort. This varies by strain. Look, if you stop trying to nitpick for a moment, you'll understand the spirit of what I'm saying. I'm just trying to point this brewer in the right direction. Do you agree that someone will perceive a flavor balance that tends towards phenolics (in belgian styles) at lower temperatures or not? If this hasn't been your experience, then say so. Otherwise, you're misleading people.

 

[atreid]

Wrong. If you want to get technical, Phenolics are controlled by the yeast's ability to convert ferulic acid to phenolic compounds ("POF+" presence of phenolic off flavor gene) and the level of ferulic acid in the wort. This varies by strain. Look, if you stop trying to nitpick for a moment, you'll understand the spirit of what I'm saying. I'm just trying to point this brewer in the right direction. Do you agree that someone will perceive a flavor balance that tends towards phenolics (in belgian styles) at lower temperatures or not? If this hasn't been your experience, then say so. Otherwise, you're misleading people.

Yes I really like to get technical thank you. I see you found a nice direct quote in Wyeast's website. I was myself refering to a table I read in "Brew like a Monk", maybe I misread/misunderstood the table or I just made certain assumptions of the "why" they did correlate Phenolics vs fermentation temperature. I guess the correlation was really only about the taste and maybe not about fermentation temp... (I don't have the book with me right now, but I'll try to remember to have a look at home this evening).

That article is also very interesting: http://www.aseanbiotechnology.info/Abstract/21022856.pdf

Obviously it's all more about the mashing process than fermentation, except for the conversion part from ferulic acid to 4-vinylguaiacol which is also occuring during fermentation. More interesting: lot of phenolic comes from wheat's ferulic acid explaining the Belgian wit phenolic character. Even more interesting: it would apparently occur a lot during the end of fermentation.

I already said I was agreeing with the phenolic perception part in a previous post. Your ego is just wasting an interesting scientific argument...

 

[Soviet]

I was myself refering to a table I read in "Brew like a Monk", maybe I misread/misunderstood the table or I just made certain assumptions of the "why" they did correlate Phenolics vs fermentation temperature.

I agree, you did.

Obviously it's all more about the mashing process than fermentation, except for the conversion part from ferulic acid to 4-vinylguaiacol which is also occuring during fermentation.

It wasn't obvious to you when you were attempting to "straighten me out" on the facts numerous times.

More interesting: lot of phenolic comes from wheat's ferulic acid explaining the Belgian wit phenolic character. Even more interesting: it would apparently occur a lot during the end of fermentation.

Glad you learned something.

I already said I was agreeing with the phenolic perception part in a previous post.

Really? I don't remember that. Exhibit A:

It's not true about the Phenols being stronger at lower temps. They are stronger at higher temperature to a point of getting to medicine taste, except that they are also partly masked but all those esters...

Clearly you're saying the "medicinal" taste from the phenolics is amplified at higher temperatures, which you now admit is false. Exhibit B:

Soviet:
It's not only the perception of phenolics, it's really the production that's higher at higher temps along with most other byproducts.

Yeah, that didn't look like a lot of agreeing.

Your ego is just wasting an interesting scientific argument...

I really had to laugh at this one. You came in here trying to help a fellow home-brewer just like I did. Any fair-minded person who reads this thread will see that you suddenly became fixated on something I wrote, and made a point to discredit my point without understanding the implications of my advice. And now look at you. Posting articles you just discovered... that prove my point... for me to read? Who's got the ego?

 

[atreid]

? Who's got the ego?

Obviously you. If I had the ego, I wouldn't be posting an article that seems to agree with what you said. I say "seems" because the article doesn't really talk about fermentation temps vs phenolics... more about mash temps...

I really don't mind being wrong. My opinion was based on something decent. Maybe it was flawed, then I can change my view.... I'll still recheck the table in "Brew like a monk" tonight...

 

[Hastein]

Come on guys, there is no need to fuss over the technical details. For my first brew, I mainly just want to make something drinkable. The instructions that came with this kit are the definition of vague. It said to bottle after 1 week, its been over 2 weeks and I still can't shine a light through it. It also does not mention any temperatures for fermentation or carbonating.....or even where/how to store it while it ferments. For all the instructions tell me to do, I could just set the carboy out on the back patio and let it ferment outside in the sun. lol

I appreciate each of your advice. If I survive drinking 5 gallons of what I have brewing now, then the next batch I will push it a little further. :cross:

 

[Soviet]

Just be patient, go get yourself another fermenter, and start another batch right away :