Was getting ready to bottle my first batch of cider. Was mixing and tasting samples to get the back sweetening perfect. Looked OK and tasted OK. Probably no more than half a glass worth of sampling and started getting a headache. Not mentioning anything, had my wife sample and shortly after she complained of feeling sick with a headache. Appears I may have a batch quite high with Fusel alcohol. Thinking back to when I started the fermentation, we did have some quite warm Fall days. Temps in the room could have hit 80. For some reason, I didn't think twice about the temp and the fermenting cider. Anyway to save the batch? From what I have read Fusel doesn't really mellow out with time. Or is my best option just take 2 aspirin before and after drinking?
First Batch of Cider = Headache
- Thread starter zoedog
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I don't think fusel alcohol will give you an instant hangover, especially after just a few ounces of some beverage.
I really don't know what would be causing it, but I don't think it's fusel alcohol.
I really don't know what would be causing it, but I don't think it's fusel alcohol.
I disagree with Walker. I've had heavy fusel in some experimental Cyser projects including freeze distillation that would create very intense headaches within 45 minutes of drinking a few sips. Makes you feel like you've been in a car accident or fell down a flight of stairs.
Yes...It's not your normal headache. It's really unpleasant. I'm not sure what else could cause it. I did add Honey before fermenting to boost the SG to just above 1.06. Active fermentation did run about 2 weeks - thought was a bit long, but everything appeared OK. Any ideas?
I have done some reading on the subject, if you are of Asian or Native American descent, you are even more vulnerable to it. I'm Scotch-Irish, and it's noticeable to me, I can't imagine how miserable it would be to someone more prone. Also... Cyser is just cider with honey.... or mead with apple juice.... one way or the other.
You may just be drinking it way too young......
Fusel and weird does certainly mellow out with time.... That's how Mead becomes drinkable at all.....
I find that my youngest drinkable sweet cider hits at about 2-weeks post bottling..... before this - you get a bunch of fusel/weird....
Here's some other musings that may or may not be irrelevant.....
Mind if I ask what sort of apple juice you started out with?
Where was it made?
One caution....
Apple juice is known to be "high" in methanol - it's a natural by-product of Pectin breakdown..... Some juices are higher in it naturally than others...... especially those made of unripe fruit and those industrially processed by enzyme liquifacation.... though most of the big industrial places in the USA use complicated separation equipment to strip the methanol back out.....
The government considers juices to be "Adulterated" if they are higher than some certain amount.... but that amount is higher than you might think....
If your apples were very unripe -- and you used a whole lot of pectic enzyme... you may have inadvertently made more methanol than you thought.... which would make headache juice....
Thanks
John
Fusel and weird does certainly mellow out with time.... That's how Mead becomes drinkable at all.....
I find that my youngest drinkable sweet cider hits at about 2-weeks post bottling..... before this - you get a bunch of fusel/weird....
Here's some other musings that may or may not be irrelevant.....
Mind if I ask what sort of apple juice you started out with?
Where was it made?
One caution....
Apple juice is known to be "high" in methanol - it's a natural by-product of Pectin breakdown..... Some juices are higher in it naturally than others...... especially those made of unripe fruit and those industrially processed by enzyme liquifacation.... though most of the big industrial places in the USA use complicated separation equipment to strip the methanol back out.....
The government considers juices to be "Adulterated" if they are higher than some certain amount.... but that amount is higher than you might think....
If your apples were very unripe -- and you used a whole lot of pectic enzyme... you may have inadvertently made more methanol than you thought.... which would make headache juice....
Thanks
John
Zoedog, I have had a similar result. I had a fairly high starting Specific Gravity. Mine was 1.12. I was using UV pasturized cider and red star champagne yeast. In hind sight, allot of sugar.
I have the SG and %Alcohol content plotted on Excel from daily measurements. I had a 5% alcohol content after the first day and it continued on with a rise in alcohol by about 2% per day after that for about 4 days then about 1 percent per day after that till where I am right now at 15.7% with a SG of 1.002.
During the testing, I would taste the brew and found that for the first few days, I was getting a slight headache and just a touch of nausea. The nausea was just very slight and I thought may be because of all the yeast.
Now, later on in the fermentation, I don't have any of this during my testing. Perhaps its what you suggest. My fermentation has been at a constant 67deg from the start, so that is one difference, however it was a very vigorous fermentation in the beginning to say the least.
I would be interested in hearing others recollections from their experiences on this.
In my case, I did not.
CvilleKevin
Well-Known Member
Interesting. I've tasted countless batches in progress, sometimes dozens at a time, but no headaches so far, knock on wood. If something tastes off, I'll dump the sample, move on and check it again in a few days. But I can see how this could happen. I have definitely made some batches where drinking more than a few oz at the wrong time might put a hurting on a person.
Did you pick up a lot of alcohol in the taste? So far, Ive had one cider this season that fermented out with a heavy alcohol taste after the crash. It was from the first pressing of juice, which had higher than usual pectin (from Prima apples) and fermentation temps got high on a few days.
How long has this been sitting since it stopped fermenting? I try to avoid backsweeting, but if one gets so dry that there is no other way to drink it, I'll usually try to let it set at least 1-4 weeks to sort itself out.
On the batch that tasted alcoholic, it didnt occur to me that what I was tasting was fusels, but it could have been. I thought maybe it was ethanol that had separated in the crash somehow. It tasted more like someone poured some cheap vodka in the cider and you could kinda feel it evaporating in your mouth while drinking the cider. It wasnt very pleasant so I only drank a small amount. I could see how drinking a big ole cup of this might give you a headache. It took about 2 weeks to be drinkable and 4 to be really good. Since then I have enjoyed many pints with no (noticeable) ill effects.
Did you pick up a lot of alcohol in the taste? So far, Ive had one cider this season that fermented out with a heavy alcohol taste after the crash. It was from the first pressing of juice, which had higher than usual pectin (from Prima apples) and fermentation temps got high on a few days.
How long has this been sitting since it stopped fermenting? I try to avoid backsweeting, but if one gets so dry that there is no other way to drink it, I'll usually try to let it set at least 1-4 weeks to sort itself out.
On the batch that tasted alcoholic, it didnt occur to me that what I was tasting was fusels, but it could have been. I thought maybe it was ethanol that had separated in the crash somehow. It tasted more like someone poured some cheap vodka in the cider and you could kinda feel it evaporating in your mouth while drinking the cider. It wasnt very pleasant so I only drank a small amount. I could see how drinking a big ole cup of this might give you a headache. It took about 2 weeks to be drinkable and 4 to be really good. Since then I have enjoyed many pints with no (noticeable) ill effects.
pimento
Well-Known Member
If the apples were higher than normal in pectin, you may have been tasting methanol. Pectins break down into methylated galactose, which ferments into methanol.
A lot of people use fusel and ethanol interchangeably, but they are very different things. Fusel is a broad name for the higher order alcohols, most of which are much less dangerous than methanol and because you get a mix of them you get a smaller concentration of each one. You get the various fusel alcohols from high temp fermentation, lack of nitrogen for the yeast or low ph of your must. Whiskeys have a much higher percentage of fusels than most other alcohols, it adds to that hot spicy burning taste.
The main problem with fusels are off flavors.
Methanol is a specific low order alcohol, more linked to causing hangovers, headaches and nausea. Your body metabolizes it into formaldehyde and it damages the optic nerves.
Generally Methanol isn't a health risk in fermented drinks, it's when you start distilling that the concentrations get higher.
It usually isn't a health risk in fermented alcoholic drinks because Ethanol helps the body metabolize the residual Methanol..... Literally -- the "Antidote" they give people for methanol poisoning is Ethanol.....
Unfortunately, most Methanol is produced before and at the very beginning of fermentation..... and most Ethanol is produced towards the end -- so you may have just gotten unlucky with sampling too early.....
Best thing you can do is to just let it finish fermenting and let it age a little..... A few weeks of aging will cure most Cider fermentation ills....
Thanks
Unfortunately, most Methanol is produced before and at the very beginning of fermentation..... and most Ethanol is produced towards the end -- so you may have just gotten unlucky with sampling too early.....
Best thing you can do is to just let it finish fermenting and let it age a little..... A few weeks of aging will cure most Cider fermentation ills....
Thanks
pimento
Well-Known Member
Sort of, ethanol taken after ingesting methanol stops the kidneys from processing the methanol into harmful compounds. You basically flood the kidneys with easily processed ethanol and they simply dump out the methanol instead of metabolizing it.
If methanol is consumed in solution with ethanol the body first processes the ethanol then the methanol, which leads to the problems. So it is still a risk, but even in 'bad' fermentations very little is produced, it's only in distillation that the numbers get high enough to cause more than discomfort.
OT: I read somewhere that you can tell bad applejack/moonshine by a very faint sheen on the surface, sort of like oil/gas in water... is that a concentration of methanol or something else? I once made an applejack-type of thing... it had the sheen.
The cider fermented for about 2 weeks. Been in a secondary for 1 week. Is clearing nicely. It's definitely taste a bit high on alcohol...but not unbearable (minus the headache) I think I'm just going to let sit for a few more weeks and see where it is at then. Got a delivery schedule from the orchard for more fresh cider this weekend to start a 2nd batch. Will keep a better eye on temps this time around. Thanks for all the comments.
CvilleKevin
Well-Known Member
My experience is that when the cider is done, there will be barely any alcohol taste. In fact, cider can be very deceptive in this respect. Several of my seasoned drinking friends have ended up crashing on the sofa because they did not believe this stuff was 6-7 percent ABV.
Probably a good rule of thumb is to let it sit for at least a week anytime you pick up more than a faint alcohol taste, and if it doesnt subside, let it continue to sit till the taste smooths out.
Probably a good rule of thumb is to let it sit for at least a week anytime you pick up more than a faint alcohol taste, and if it doesnt subside, let it continue to sit till the taste smooths out.
It's pretty amazing how this works isn't it....
Our favorite batch of cider from last year was the smoothest, easiest drinking stuff..... came out right around 7.5%.... but you would never know it from the flavor.... Appley, smooth, and delicious....
The stuff sneaks up on you and you have no idea how lit up you really are.... Till you stand up and the room kinda swirls around you.....
Thanks
lanceearlhaines
Member
Unpasteurized juice has many strains of natural yeast and bacteria, some of which can cause many problems. Competition among microbes may have driven the alcohol profile away from ethanol and more toward methanol or fusel alcohols. Did you proof the Wyeast in a small batch of pasteurized apple juice? Doing this to grow up your yeast numbers will "swamp" the competition which has had a head start in fermentation and give your added yeast a fighting edge and you more control. Keep a consistent temp for fermentation for further control. Ultimate control involves using pasteurized apple juice. Also apples are missing some nutrients that yeast need to grow and live and ferment. Addition of yeast nutrients will ensure the health of yeast colonies for a more consistent and controlled ferment. But I am no expert, But I know a little about yeast. I am new to this stuff too, so take my words with a shot of applejack.
I've been reading around this site for a while and 1) I realize I am digging up an old thread 2) I just finished my first batches of cider 3) I found the information I was hoping for once again here. In the time it took me to read this thread my pounding headache, and sore jaw have subsided and the bottles of cider are going back in the basement. I had to bottle 2 of eatch batch, they were so good. Bad Idea. Try again in a week. You guys rock, and so does my cider.
I put 2lbs of molasses in one 5 gal with 7lbs B.sugar and 2 lbs honey with nottingham and ended up with a smokey mysterious brew that I am very excited for. they are way to young to be drinking..... I just put them into secondary after 24days at 65*.
yeah, so back to the point. Thank you for writing all these things over the years. Its appreciated.
I put 2lbs of molasses in one 5 gal with 7lbs B.sugar and 2 lbs honey with nottingham and ended up with a smokey mysterious brew that I am very excited for. they are way to young to be drinking..... I just put them into secondary after 24days at 65*.
yeah, so back to the point. Thank you for writing all these things over the years. Its appreciated.
