First All-Grain Ruined After Kegging - Please Help

[gmcardle]

OK I'm an all-grain/kegging newbie and I've just completed my first All-Grain home brew and I managed to get approx 15liters of the lovely IPA into a 19liter corny keg. I watched a number of videos and noted some online advise before transferring to my keg.

So before the keg transfer I made sure I fully cleaned, sanitized and rinsed all parts of my keg. I then syphoned the beer carefully from my fermentor bucket into the keg. I tested all connectors with soapy water to test for leaks and none were found. I then connected the my dual regulator/KG CO2 cylinder to the keg using 3/8 hard gas line. I set the regulator to 30psi and left it overnight in my fridge at approx 7°C and purged the keg head space slowly a few times to push out any oxygen.

The following night I attached a Beer Line Assembly (5 Feet of 6.5mm liquid line with plastic Party Faucet), I disconnected the gas, released some head space from the keg and attempted to pour some beer. What came out was pretty much 95% foam and it came out fast, but it tasted great one is settled in the glass!

I connected the gas again, left it at 30psi at 6°C for a few days and then disconnected the gas, let out some head space and again it poured fast with lots of head...but still tasting great.

After 4-5 days at 30psi the beer seemed carbonated but fast pour and foam were still major issues. I repeated disconnecting the gas and letting off head space to see if I could get a decent pour. Eventually I did but the beer was now partially flat and it tasted terrible. It was like the beer was now watery (diluted taste) and had no more nice aroma and left a bitter after taste.

So this was my first all-grain that tasted great before and shortly after kegging and now it's completely ruined. I know I've done something wrong and would really appreciate support from those who really know how to keg/dispense properly as I feel deflated after pouring all the beer down the sink.

I have a number of questions I'm hoping you guys can help with as follows:

1. I don't quite understand what PSI initially I need to set for my IPA, I'm guessing around 30psi? Also I don't quite understand what 'Volumes of CO2' is on a beer reference table/chart/calculator, what should this figure be based on my setup?

2. I don't know how long I should leave the beer carbonating at 30psi before testing and is my fridge temp ok?

3. The beer is coming out way too fast from the faucet and causing a lot of foam, should I be releasing all or most the head space from the keg before dispensing beer?

4. Once the beer is fully carbonated should I be leaving it attached to the gas at a lower pressure of say 10psi?

5. I don't understand how I ruined my beer and I'm afraid I'd do it again, it tasted great to start and I didn't think it was possible to alter the taste so much in a keg in should a short time.

PLEASE PLEASE HELP!!

 

[IchLiebeBier]

Here is my checklist of steps for kegging (found online somewhere). Others surely do it differently.

I think this will answer all of your questions.


1. Siphon beer into sanitized keg and attach keg lid.

2. Connect gas line and increase pressure to about 40 psi - double check for leaks!

3. Place keg with gas line attached into fridge and leave under pressure for about 24 hours.

4. Adjust pressure down to 20 PSI for 24 hours.

5. Test carbonation level - turn down regulator pressure to about 10 psi and release excess pressure in keg by lifting the pressure relief valve.

6. If more carbonation is needed, turn regulator up to about 20 psi and leave for another 24 hrs.

 

[unviewtiful]

First off, your beer is (most likely) not ruined.

1. Balancing your lines can be pretty tricky. It's a combination of temperature, desired carbonation level, and beer line length. Pick a temperature that works for you and your system (mine is around 36-38F), then use a carbonation chart like this one, find your temperature, then go to the right into the green area. Pick something in the middle of the range to start, and you can adjust later. Volumes of CO2 is just a way to quantitatively describe carbonation level of your beer.

2. I use the "burst carb" method to carbonate my kegs, and I'll set the CO2 to 30 psi for 24-36 hours, then purge headspace and turn town to serving pressure. After about 3 days at serving pressure the carbonation is usually at a level that I like.

3. You should not be dispensing at 30 psi with pure CO2, pretty much ever. After you do the initial burst of carbonation at 30 psi, bleed off the pressure and drop the regulator to your serving pressure. Once you get dialed in, you won't have to bleed pressure before every pour.

4. Yes, you should leave it on gas at your determined serving pressure. Using the carbonation table linked above, you choose your serving temperature, the follow the chart to your desired carbonation level, and the column you end up in will tell you what your serving pressure should be. A hose length calculator will then help determine how long your beer line should be to stay balanced. I would definitely recommend you use smaller diameter tubing (3/16" is most common) because it will require a shorter line than a larger diameter balanced at the same temperature and pressure.

5. Your beer is definitely overcarbed if you left it at 30 psi for 5+ days. That's part of the problem. To get the carbonation level down, disconnect it from gas, bleed off pressure, and let it settle for a while. Do this a few times over the course of a couple days, testing your pours along the way. This might help bring the flavor back to where you want it, but I feel like there's something else going on if the flavor changed that much. Don't give up though, everyone screws up at least once.

 

[FVillatoro]

I also had a ton of trouble with my first kegging and forced co2 carbing, but I did the following and I now have a full working system with zero issues.

The rate of Co2 absorption into the beer has to do with 2 things: Temperature and co2 pressure set by the regulator.

• 1. Check out this calculator http://www.brewersfriend.com/keg-carbonation-calculator/

The cooler the beer the more Co2 it will absorb at a given pressure. You have to set the temperature that you want your beer at, then with that calculator set the regulator to give you the amount of co2 volume that you want. A volume of 2.0 would be just some carbonation, and a value of 2.5 would be like most beers that you find, and 3.0 and above like German wheats and American Lagers- a lot of gas.

The second thing you need to determine is the length of beer line needed to keep the beer from foaming at the co2 volumes that you want.
The length of the line is what provides resistance (in term slows down) the speed of the beer coming out so that you don't get a ton of foam. Research to see how much people are using, but I personally use 16 FEET PER KEG of glass-lined beer hose and I set my co2 regulator to around 11.7psi at a temperature of 38-42 degrees. I have what is known as a "balanced system" in which the temperature of the beer, the co2 pressure, and length of hose provide me with both the carbing and service pressure needed.

Some people chill the beer cold (around 34 degrees) and force carb at like 30 psi for one day or so and shake the keg to carb quickly, then set down the serving pressure.
I just connect the gas line to my kegs and in 2 weeks my kegs are ready to serve.

I hope this helped.

 

[m1k3]

For folks new to kegging... set it at 12psi and wait a week. The beer will be better in a week anyway.
I do use the shake or over pressure methods on occasion... but I am careful after overdoing it.

Also, I hope you didn't dump an over carbonated beer! It could have been saved. (not completely ruined)

Method #1 (faster) - put a black liquid ball lock on the CO2 line and bubble CO2 in the liquid out side. (not the greatest for an IPA because the aroma will suffer).

Method #2 (slower) - take all the CO2 pressure off the keg and release the pressure from the keg as it escapes from the liquid (over a few days). Note: Warming the beer slightly will speed this up since CO2 will come out of solution faster at say 50-60F than 30-40F.

 

[gmcardle]

Wow guys thank you ALL so much for your prompt replies, I really appreciate your time on this…you’ve put the brewing spirit back into me and I’ve learned so much already from each of your replies. BTW The remainder of the brew is still in the kegarator, the only brew that went down the sink are the foamy pints that tasted off or watery.

So based on all your replies this is what I’ll do with my next all grain IPA which should be due for the corny keg next week. Some steps include more questions (many thanks for your patience).

1. Throughly wash and sanitise my keg and all parts (along with all the other gear).
2. Syphon beer from fermentation bucket into sanitised corny keg. Now should I fill it up to just under the smaller dip tube or what is the norm? Should the long dip tube end be aligned directly above the centre of the keg base?
3. Connect to CO2 test all connections for gas leaks.
4. Set regulator to approx 30psi for a minimum of 24-36hours in kegarator at 40F.
5. After the initial 36 hours bleed off the pressure and drop regulator to serving pressure which I estimate from the charts/calculator is about 11psi (I’m looking for a volume of about 2.5). Now do I bleed off the entire head space (in slow bursts?) or just let out a small bit bit of headspace? (i.e how do I determine excess pressure amount)?. Thanks guys too for the links to the calculators, great resources!!
6. Then I keep the gas connected to the keg at 10psi for about 3days, purge headspace slowly (again do I fully purge or just let out a small amount in slow bursts?). Then test pour/taste for the first time.
7. If all is good at that point do I keep it connected at 10psi and enjoy from there on hopefully or what is the norm?
8. I agree that I should revise my Beer Line Assembly which is currently this one

Also, is it possible that the current beer turned flavourless, bitter and watery because I over carbed or was purging headspace too fast? I'm thinking perhaps that all the flavour was forced out initially with the foam due to over carbing perhaps (even the colour turned lighter!). I've no idea what caused such a sudden change but appreciate your thoughts as it tasted great the 2nd/5th day in the keg but then progressively got worse each day I tested after that?

Again thanks @IchLiebeBier, @unviewtiful, @FVillatoro and @m1k3 for all your excellent advice and especially for all getting back to me so quickly. I’m really excited about my new adventure in all-grain brewing but the kegging side of things has left me a bit nervous that I’ll mess up again as I'm still a bit unsure how it turned so quickly for the worst.

Well I’ve turned off the gas and purged the head space on the current brew. I'll let it settle for a couple of days as suggested and then I’ll taste it again…but I’m doubtful it will taste anything like it did after it went in initially : (

 

[jrcrilly]

For folks new to kegging... set it at 12psi and wait a week. The beer will be better in a week anyway.

 

[Pkrd]

For folks new to kegging... set it at 12psi and wait a week. The beer will be better in a week anyway.

This!!!
But you want to purge the headspace about 6 times immediately.

My current method for force carbing is to shake the heck out of the keg at serving pressure. Seems to work well.

 

[IslandLizard]

I'm so glad you didn't dump your beer because of over carbonation. I know you were about to...

There's one more detail I've not seen addressed yet. Right after you've siphoned the beer into your keg,* and remounted the lid, you need to purge the head space. It contains 100% air and to remove as much as possible, set your regulator to 20-30 psi, let it fill, followed by letting all the gas out by releasing the PRV. Repeat 5-10 times. Now you've mostly CO2 in the head space, with a little air mixed in, and you can carbonate it. To save a some gas you can close the little gas check valve on your regulator or splitter before you release the PRV. Many of us don't, we simply leave the gas open, since it only takes a few seconds to let the gas out.

For even better, almost airless transfer and saving lots of gas on purging partially filled kegs, check out pre-purging kegs.

*You can fill the keg to right under the gas tip tube, but it's better not to go past it, unless you know how to handle that without getting beer into you gas lines.

 

[gmcardle]

I'm so glad you didn't dump your beer because of over carbonation. I know you were about to...

There's one more detail I've not seen addressed yet. Right after you've siphoned the beer into your keg,* and remounted the lid, you need to purge the head space. It contains 100% air and to remove as much as possible, set your regulator to 20-30 psi, let it fill, followed by letting all the gas out by releasing the PRV. Repeat 5-10 times. Now you've mostly CO2 in the head space, with a little air mixed in, and you can carbonate it. To save a some gas you can close the little gas check valve on your regulator or splitter before you release the PRV. Many of us don't, we simply leave the gas open, since it only takes a few seconds to let the gas out.

For even better, almost airless transfer and saving lots of gas on purging partially filled kegs, check out pre-purging kegs.

*You can fill the keg to right under the gas tip tube, but it's better not to go past it, unless you know how to handle that without getting beer into you gas lines.

OK I'll ensure to purge the head space after kegging. Also, do I need to fully purge the headspace before doing a test pour after a few days? I think I'll set it at 12psi and wait a week as suggested above but not sure what I should do re purging after conditioning and carbonating?

 

[treacheroustexan]

Just chiming in my method.

1. Clean/Sanitize keg & tubing
2. Transfer beer into keg
3. Put the lid back on
4. Turn up to 10 psi or so and pull the PRV 10 or so times.
5. Chill in fridge
6. After the keg is cold, turn up to 30 PSI for 24 hours
7. After 24 hrs, purge and set to 8-10 psi
8. Start pouring pints after day 4 or so to test.

Keep in mind, this is after my beer has already been in primary for a month or so. If it's only been two weeks, I recommend what was posted above. Set to serving pressure and just let it sit for at least a week or two before touching it.

 

[cwmagui]

OK I'll ensure to purge the head space after kegging. Also, do I need to fully purge the headspace before doing a test pour after a few days? I think I'll set it at 12psi and wait a week as suggested above but not sure what I should do re purging after conditioning and carbonating?

Yes you need to fully purge the head space if you carb at a higher (20-30psi) pressure. If you don't, your serving pressure will be too high. If you carb at serving pressure, there is no need to purge again. I always do the quick carb. I don't have the patience to wait a week.

 

[thereverendmaynard]

Just a quick comment - I fill my kegs to the top with starsan first - then pump the starsan out using CO2 to fully purge the keg of all o2. I transfer from my conical using CO2. I just use the relief valve to let out the displaced CO2 as the keg fills.

If you havent already- I would also recommend cleaning the posts and replacing all of the o rings (many kegs will come with o ring replacement kits)

 

[stratslinger]

...Some steps include more questions (many thanks for your patience).

1. Throughly wash and sanitise my keg and all parts (along with all the other gear).
2. Syphon beer from fermentation bucket into sanitised corny keg. Now should I fill it up to just under the smaller dip tube or what is the norm? Should the long dip tube end be aligned directly above the centre of the keg base?
3. Connect to CO2 test all connections for gas leaks.
4. Set regulator to approx 30psi for a minimum of 24-36hours in kegarator at 40F.
5. After the initial 36 hours bleed off the pressure and drop regulator to serving pressure which I estimate from the charts/calculator is about 11psi (I’m looking for a volume of about 2.5). Now do I bleed off the entire head space (in slow bursts?) or just let out a small bit bit of headspace? (i.e how do I determine excess pressure amount)?. Thanks guys too for the links to the calculators, great resources!!
6. Then I keep the gas connected to the keg at 10psi for about 3days, purge headspace slowly (again do I fully purge or just let out a small amount in slow bursts?). Then test pour/taste for the first time.
7. If all is good at that point do I keep it connected at 10psi and enjoy from there on hopefully or what is the norm?
8. I agree that I should revise my Beer Line Assembly which is currently this one

Also, is it possible that the current beer turned flavourless, bitter and watery because I over carbed or was purging headspace too fast?(

A couple notes:
1) If you want to really simplify this, and you're patient, on step 4 just set your reg to your serving pressure. Wait 2 weeks. Do not purge. Serve your beer. Enjoy the fruits of your patience!
2) If you want to go with the faster method as outlined above: you only need to purge your keg when you step the regulator down. And purge completely - what you're trying to do is make sure that there is not more pressure inside your keg than what your reg is pushing, so you don't accidentally back-flow beer into your reg. So, disconnect gas, purge completely (slow or fast, does not matter), reset reg to serving pressure, reconnect gas.
3) Lastly - there's no need to purge when you serve. If your reg is not changing, there's no need to purge. Just go ahead and pull a pint.

As to the watery, flavorless quality of the last couple pints your pulled - that's probably more likely due to the overcarbonation than anything. You were pulling more foam than liquid, and that doesn't tend to hold onto flavor compounds as well. Let the overcarbonation work itself out, and the beer should return to its original state.

 

[gmcardle]

wow thanks a million guys, some really valuable information here that I will certainly take on board. I think that as it's my first time kegging I will leave it at 12psi for a week+ and then try it to see how I get on. I'm understanding the process a lot more now that I asked which is great! Thanks for all the great advise....I will keep you posted in a weeks time!

 

[stratslinger]

wow thanks a million guys, some really valuable information here that I will certainly take on board. I think that as it's my first time kegging I will leave it at 12psi for a week+ and then try it to see how I get on. I'm understanding the process a lot more now that I asked which is great! Thanks for all the great advise....I will keep you posted in a weeks time!

Unless you know that the beer has gone flat (and that's not going to happen unless you've either purged a lot or pulled the release valve and kept it open for an extended period), that's not going to help you at this point, since you've already over-carbed the beer. You're going to need to take it off the gas and purge pretty frequently for a day or two (maybe more) before the carbonation level comes down to where it should be.

I may have missed something where you explained how you purged until flat - but if I haven't, please keep this in mind!

 

[gmcardle]

For folks new to kegging... set it at 12psi and wait a week. The beer will be better in a week anyway.

OK so I left my next brew for a week at 12psi and I just tried pouring a tester and it gushed out to fill the glass full of head. Once it settled I gave it a go and it didn't taste the best, that weird watery taste, perhaps its because it's the first run from the keg and it came out 100% head like before? So I ditched that glass, purged the entire headspace and set the CO2 to about 5psi and it poured like I'd see in a bar. This second tester seemed a good bit better to the first but there is a strong bitter taste afterwards, could this be because it's still early days i.e two weeks fermenting and one week in the keg?

Just to point out, all hops on this IPA were added after the boil and left for 30mins and then dry hopped.

 

[stratslinger]

Did we ever establish how long your liquid line is? What you described sounds like a classic symptom of lines that are too short (ie, at serving pressure you pour a ton of head, but drop it down to 5psi or so and you get a good pour).

 

[gmcardle]

Did we ever establish how long your liquid line is? What you described sounds like a classic symptom of lines that are too short (ie, at serving pressure you pour a ton of head, but drop it down to 5psi or so and you get a good pour).

Yes I currently have 5 Feet of 6.5mm liquid line with plastic Party Faucet, is that no good?

 

[TorMag]

My kegs went flat too. Till I found out that in a drunken state I had turned off the gas

 

[stratslinger]

Yes I currently have 5 Feet of 6.5mm liquid line with plastic Party Faucet, is that no good?

So that works out to 5 feet of .25" ID tubing.

No wonder you're having trouble!

To balance your system correctly, you need to have enough resistance (from the tubing) to help keep the CO2 in solution.

The general rule of thumb around here, and one I've found to work well, is that if you're pushing 11 or 12PSI at 40F (+/- a couple degrees), you need to have 10' of 3/16" tubing to get enough resistance. If you really want to go with 1/4", I forget the exact length, but it's significantly longer.

As I see it, you have 2 options:
1) Try to pick up 10' of 3/16"ID (about 4.75mm), swap it in for the line you're currently using, and you should be good

2) find another way to add restriction - There are threads here on HBT about using paint stirrers (I think that's what they were?) in the liquid dip tube of your keg, that allow you to go with pretty much any tubing size you want, I also just read in Zymurgy where a guy used a length of cleaned and sanitized weed wacker line in his party tap tubing (just cut it to the same length as your tubing and install it inside the tube) to get pretty much the same effect

 

[cwmagui]

So that works out to 5 feet of .25" ID tubing.

No wonder you're having trouble!

To balance your system correctly, you need to have enough resistance (from the tubing) to help keep the CO2 in solution.

The general rule of thumb around here, and one I've found to work well, is that if you're pushing 11 or 12PSI at 40F (+/- a couple degrees), you need to have 10' of 3/16" tubing to get enough resistance. If you really want to go with 1/4", I forget the exact length, but it's significantly longer.

As I see it, you have 2 options:
1) Try to pick up 10' of 3/16"ID (about 4.75mm), swap it in for the line you're currently using, and you should be good

2) find another way to add restriction - There are threads here on HBT about using paint stirrers (I think that's what they were?) in the liquid dip tube of your keg, that allow you to go with pretty much any tubing size you want, I also just read in Zymurgy where a guy used a length of cleaned and sanitized weed wacker line in his party tap tubing (just cut it to the same length as your tubing and install it inside the tube) to get pretty much the same effect

Those numbers don't match what I get. Using these numbers:

• 3/16″ ID vinyl tubing = 3 psi/ft
• 1/4″ ID vinyl tubing = 0.85 psi/ft

If using 3/16 line (12 psi / 3 psi per ft) you would need just 4' of 3/16
If using 1/4 line (12 psi / .85 psi per ft) you would need just over 14'.

 

[Bobby_M]

Do you run 4 ft lines successfully or are you speculating? I don't know anyone that gets away with the hypothetical figures in reality. My lines are 9 ft and the pour is perfect.

 

[treacheroustexan]

Do you run 4 ft lines successfully or are you speculating? I don't know anyone that gets away with the hypothetical figures in reality. My lines are 9 ft and the pour is perfect.

I only run 5 feet and I have the perfect pour between 8-10psi serving pressure.

 

[gmcardle]

Try to pick up 10' of 3/16"ID (about 4.75mm), swap it in for the line you're currently using, and you should be good

OK great thanks, I'll order that today here. Do I need to change any of the connectors on my keg or CO2 regulator?

Also any recommendations on concealing 10' of beer line in a kegerator?

 

[stratslinger]

Coil it up on top of your kegs. 10' of beer line sounds like a lot more (and a lot bigger) than it really is.

As to the lengths: I know some calculators out there do suggest 4' or so. In my experience, those just don't match up to reality (understanding of course that they do appear to line up for TT above). I used to run 7' lines in my kegerator, and still had the occasional foam issue. Since swapping them all over to 10' about a year ago, those issues have disappeared. I've read tons of others' experiences here who line up with exactly that. Maybe the makeup of the line itself has something to do with it?

 

[day_trippr]

Once again, any calculator that starts out assuming 3 psi per foot equivalent resistance for 3/16" ID tubing is wrong out of the box.
And, sadly, 99% of purported calculators get that wrong, but here's the one that gets it right.

http://www.mikesoltys.com/2012/09/17/determining-proper-hose-length-for-your-kegerator/

Comes complete with an education...

Cheers!

 

[gmcardle]

For folks new to kegging... set it at 12psi and wait a week. The beer will be better in a week anyway.

This method seems to be working well for me, however I do need to purge the headspace almost completely each time due to it pouring too fast if I don't. Then I set the regulator to about 5psi and it pours great. I'm looking into a longer beer line to adjust/fix this method but in the mean time I just want to find out the following:

1. Is it possible to ruin my beer over time from random purging of the headspace and then setting it back to 12psi when not drinking?

2. Before pouring, do I need to purge headspace over a certain amount of time or is it ok to release it slowly within lets say a minute with a few soft pulls of the ring?

3. After an IPA goes into a keg how long generally should it be left for before drinking? It's over a week in the keg and it tastes 'ok', a bit bitter and a little bit of a cardboardy taste...but drinkable?

Thanks for all the help on this guys, I'm learning!

 

[stratslinger]

1) No - all you're doing is expelling headpressure in the form of CO2, then refilling it with CO2 at a lower pressure. This will not harm your beer.

2) Just pull the darn ring until it's purged. You're making way too much fuss over "how fast do I purge" - just pull the ring and purge whatever pressure is there, and you're done. It's not rocket surgery.

3) That cardboardy thing sounds like possible oxidation, so I'd look at how well you purged when you first transferred to the keg, and anywhere that there was any splashing going on when you transferred. Other than that, an IPA doesn't need to be left any amount of time - get it carbed, enjoy. Generally, as with in bottles, the longer it sits, the more some of the aromas will fade, but if the keg is properly pressurized with CO2 and purged of genera atmospheric air, it should last longer than in bottles. (And, in theory, I guess you MIGHT expell a little bit of aroma with repeated purges - but the compounds that create that aroma are still there in your beer, so this is VERY unlikely)

 

[Jimbodaman]

Transfer beer to keg with minimal splashing.
Hook up CO2 and turn regulator to about 10ish psi
Pull the bleeder pin all the way all the way for 2 seconds, 10 times.
Wait 1 week and serve.
No need to bleed or do anything else after you've done the above except pour and enjoy.

This has always worked for me I hope I made it as simple as possible. It sounds like you didn't immediately purge your most recent beer which would cause oxidation and an off flavor unless I misunderstood.