First all-grain batch (whew)

[Shawn3997]

So...

I did my first all-grain batch yesterday (yay!) and it was a day-long event that ended up a real mess (sigh!).

To start the day off, I poured 7.5 gallons of 160F distilled water into my cooler that had a voile bag and 11 lbs. of grain in it. Stirred it up well, hit my 153F number perfectly. Put the top on and waited an hour. Opened it up, temperature was 150F. More of a drop than I thought it should have been given that it was 83F ambient but oh well.

Excited at how easy this was, I measured my wort. My post-mash gravity was 1.022. I thought that was *WAY* too low, so after freaking out a bit, I heated the wort back up to 160F and did the whole mash again. After another hour, I ended up at like 1.032 or so.

To me that looked like it was still too low given that I wanted to end up at 1.052, but I didn't have any reference, so I went with it. I started my boil with just under 7 gallons of wort. I had only lost a tad more than 1/2 of a gallon to the grain. (Guess I squeezed it all out!)

--> Mental note: Don't try to save money by not having spigots installed in either your cooler or kettle. I spilled half a gallon of HOT wort all over everything trying to move it around without the spigots that I *will* buy before my next batch. I didn't burn myself, but only by sheer luck. <--

Then, to get the final gravity down, I went with a somewhat vigorous boil for an hour and ended up at a little BELOW 5 gallons, and a final S.G. of 1.058! I had boiled off almost 2 gallons in a hour. (Yay banjo burner!)

Also yay! to my new 50' stainless steel immersion cooler. It did a fantastic job getting the wort down from boiling to 100F in 10-15 minutes or so. Then it took about 15 minutes to get it from 100F to 80F, where it seemed to stall out. Our ground water is probably about 80F this time of year I surmise.

I poured everything into the carboy and noticed it had a ton of gunk in it. It looks like my hop bag let half my hops out with the vigorous boil. (I guess I'll learn how to use finings now, so that's a plus, right? What should I use?)

I threw some dry yeast in at 78F and put the carboy in my fermentation cooler thingy with some 2 liter bottles of frozen water. It's perking today, so I guess that's a plus, but it was a hell of a day. Only took like 6 hours after all the cleaning was done...

Before killing myself again can someone tell me if 1.032 is a good post-mash gravity number? Or should I have had a higher number and done a less intense boil? Why did I get only 1.022 after the first mash? I did notice that my grains were poorly crushed, should I blender the next batch?

And did my use of distilled water cause an issue? Those are the only two things I can think of that might have led to such a poor first mash.

I'm too tired to ask more questions... hah. What a day!

 

[jamorgan3777]

Lots of stuff going on there. I think the most important advice that I repeat to myself is relax. People have been brewing beer for thousands of years surely a couple of points here and there are not going to ruin it.

Your preboil gravity is going to depend on a lot of things. You didnt mention what your target was. A lot of recipes and programs will make a suggestion. You did the right thing with added time to increase the conversion (raise the gravity), although another hour was probably a little much. Losing only 3 degrees per hour is great for your mash tun. Another thing to remember is make sure your wort is well mixed before you take the gravity sample. I have been burned by that a couple of times. If you can swing it I would HIGHLY recommend getting a refractometer. $35 bucks and they eliminate SOOO much hassle. You can also make multiple measurements very easy.

Also, boil off rates are going to vary from system to system. Good you have some control there. That is another thing the refractometer will do is allow you to measure your gravity throughout the boil to see where its going and when to stop. You can adjust heat as you go. The hop conversion is temperature dependent and water boils at 212. The evaporation rate is heat dependent so the more fire you give it the faster it will go.

Distilled water may have played a role as well. The mash is conversion of starches to sugars via enzymes. The enzymes need metal ions in the water to work well (Ca, Na, K, etc.). Distilled water has much lower levels of these. The conversion isnt stopped of course but may have been slowed some due to the DI water.

airlock bubbles = yeast so it sounds like nothing to worry about. When you get to your 60th batch (Im on #44) you will look back on this one and laugh.

 

[JimRausch]

Shawn- here's a handy tip that will help you decide if you need to add some DME during boil (or boil longer than usual).
Take your SG measurement of the combined runnings in points (in your case =32). Multiply that by your volume collected ( 7). that equals your gravity points collected (224). Divide that # by the volume you want to finish with (say 5.5). That equals what your postboil SG will be (41 or 1.041). If that is below your target, you can add some DME or LME, or sugar that raise the SG. As a broad rule of thumb 1 lb of DME or sugar will give you about another 8 points in a 5G batch.
Off topic- jamorgan- you're on batch 44. Start planning for batch 50 to make it special. Mine was a Bock that I did a decoction, and also a separate boil of some of the 1st runnings to get it extra malty. It turned out wicked nice.

 

[kristiismean]

First off, congrats on your First all grain batch,

and yeah, it's not that bad, is it. I was not scared, but the research was killing me before i just did it. Easiest thing. and no extract twang. (getting more and more sensitive to it).

so far, 1/2 my batches have been all grain this year. (127 gallons so far) and the control over the color is amazing. my red hoppy wheat was golden red, which I could never get with extract.

i was a little under 5 my first few times before I got dialed in. but just brewed a batch with a friend at his house with his pot, and I guess all pots are different.

 

[mongoose33]

Some thoughts (and it's your first one, so think how much better the second one will go!):

1. Put a blanket or sleeping bag or something over the mash tun; it'll help hold the heat in. You also can pre-heat it by putting a gallon of boiling water in it, let it sit, swish a bit around (be careful), then dump it.

2. Untreated distilled water is almost certainly not going to be quite right. You need to think about water, and PH. I'm going to guess that you ended up with a high PH, which isn't going to help the enzymes do their work. I'm going to suggest this had something to do with your initial low gravity.

3. I think you should have batch sparged; when I do a similar grain bill, I'll start with probably 4 gallons in the mash; I will stir once or twice at 10 and 30 minutes to ensure everything is well mixed. I'll draw off the first runnings which will have a very high gravity (1.08-1.095, typically). I'll add back about 4 to 4.25 gallons of heated sparge water, put the 1st runnings in my kettle to start heating, stir the mash w/ the sparge water added, then draw that off. The second runnings will likely be around 1.030 to 1.035 which, when combined with the high gravity first runnings, will produce a starting gravity in the kettle of maybe 1.055 (depends on exact grain bill).

4. Was the crush a good one? I'm favoring PH as the major explanation, but crush could have been involved too.

At least you got the gravity back to where you needed it by boiling. Hopefully some work with PH and sparging will help.

 

[davisc1513]

Congrats! I've done three ag brews first being the only success haha porter second being terrible (gravity post pool 1.026) and better with the recent blue moon clone 3 gallons gravity 1.036 post boil. So better all the time! I was also trying to fly sparge which didn't help. But you learn every day my friend! Sounds like it went great!

 

[RM-MN]

Some thoughts (and it's your first one, so think how much better the second one will go!):

1. Put a blanket or sleeping bag or something over the mash tun; it'll help hold the heat in. You also can pre-heat it by putting a gallon of boiling water in it, let it sit, swish a bit around (be careful), then dump it.

2. Untreated distilled water is almost certainly not going to be quite right. You need to think about water, and PH. I'm going to guess that you ended up with a high PH, which isn't going to help the enzymes do their work. I'm going to suggest this had something to do with your initial low gravity.

3. I think you should have batch sparged; when I do a similar grain bill, I'll start with probably 4 gallons in the mash; I will stir once or twice at 10 and 30 minutes to ensure everything is well mixed. I'll draw off the first runnings which will have a very high gravity (1.08-1.095, typically). I'll add back about 4 to 4.25 gallons of heated sparge water, put the 1st runnings in my kettle to start heating, stir the mash w/ the sparge water added, then draw that off. The second runnings will likely be around 1.030 to 1.035 which, when combined with the high gravity first runnings, will produce a starting gravity in the kettle of maybe 1.055 (depends on exact grain bill).

4. Was the crush a good one? I'm favoring PH as the major explanation, but crush could have been involved too.

At least you got the gravity back to where you needed it by boiling. Hopefully some work with PH and sparging will help.

These two items in concert are a problem. The first one can be quickly remedied for the next batch by using spring water instead of distilled. The enzymes need some mineral content in the water to work well. However, from previous experience and from reading other people's experiences, the first 3 reasons for lower than expected OG in all grain brewing are the crush, the crush, and the crush. The fact that you increased your pre-boil gravity by mashing a second time points to this too. Your crush was too coarse so the starches didn't gelatinize well which means that the enzymes couldn't get at them to convert nor were you able to soak the sugars out when they did. You also didn't do yourself any favors by going with full volume no sparge as you would have left sugars behind that could have added to your pre-bo9il gravity.

 

[ericbw]

I think it's unclear how you mashed. Did you sparge after mashing?

Also, you heated your first runnings back up and put that back in the grain?

I think it works better to mash with 1.25 quarts per pound of grain, then sparge with the amount you need to get to your boil volume. It rinses the grain better.

But you ended up where you wanted to be, so it doesn't sound like you messed up!

 

[Tribe Fan]

All in all, you'll probably have a killer beer.

Get some spigots and improve your crush. 153 to 150 is a great mash, no worries there.

Get a drill powered grain mill and do it yourself, or talk to the LHBS about your recipe and the crush you want. Unless you are adding a lot of flaked stuff or rice you should be able to go pretty fine. If you are worried about going too fine and stuck mashes, add rice hulls (I never have and have never had a stuck mash).

 

[Shawn3997]

OK, so here's the consensus, I believe:

1. Use spring water instead of distilled water. Will do.

2. Crush the grain better. I'll have to blender it as I don't have a mill, but I've heard that works fine if you don't overdo it. Will do.

3. Perhaps use a thicker mash and do at least one batch sparge. How could I do this with just two vessels? I pick up the BIAB bag after mashing, the bag does the vorlauf, then where do I put my first runnings if I need my kettle to heat up and pour in my water for batch sparge? I would need another pot or something wouldn't I?

4. Get a kettle with a spigot. Get a spigot for my cooler. Get an affordable refractometer. I think I can do this as well.

So I will do #1, #2 and #4 on my next batch. I'm not sure how to do #3.

Also, related to efficiency, I've read that for really good numbers one should trickle out the runnings very, very slowly. Like over 30-45 minutes. Do they mean to do this for the first runnings and then again for the batch sparge runnings?

Nowhere to go but up eh?

 

[oujens]

OK, so here's the consensus, I believe:

1. Use spring water instead of distilled water. Will do.

2. Crush the grain better. I'll have to blender it as I don't have a mill, but I've heard that works fine if you don't overdo it. Will do.

3. Perhaps use a thicker mash and do at least one batch sparge. How could I do this with just two vessels? I pick up the BIAB bag after mashing, the bag does the vorlauf, then where do I put my first runnings if I need my kettle to heat up and pour in my water for batch sparge? I would need another pot or something wouldn't I?

4. Get a kettle with a spigot. Get a spigot for my cooler. Get an affordable refractometer. I think I can do this as well.

So I will do #1, #2 and #4 on my next batch. I'm not sure how to do #3.

Also, related to efficiency, I've read that for really good numbers one should trickle out the runnings very, very slowly. Like over 30-45 minutes. Do they mean to do this for the first runnings and then again for the batch sparge runnings?

Nowhere to go but up eh?

I use RO water. That could be a solution as well. $3.50 for 10 gallons where I live.

I don't think you should need a batch sparge in BIAB. Not clear how you did it in your cooler, but in a single vessel BIAB you do a full volume mash (if you have room) and simply lift the bag and drain/squeeze remaining wort from grains to kettle. I think you should be able to achieve the same results in your cooler. Maybe a sparge would help if you cannot crush finer. If doing BIAB, you might look into the corona mills that can be had for less than $30. Edit: Search Denny Conn's batch sparging method. Worked well for me before I switched to BIAB. This could help if you do need to sparge.

Also, for my first BIAB (single vessel) I took a gravity reading at the end of the mash and it was way lower than I had planned. However, I realized that I probably needed to drain and stir before taking a reading. I did this and hit my numbers. I'm not saying you probably hit your numbers after the mash the first time, but be sure you drain and stir well before measuring your gravity.

For the kettle, if doing BIAB you might think about one big enough to just mash in your kettle. That way you don't need to worry about the cooler.

Congrats on the first brew!

 

[andycook]

When you measured 1.022 what was the temp of the wort? Did you adjust for temp?

 

[ericbw]

Sorry - I didn't realize it was biab. No need to do a sparge if you're adding all the water in the beginning.

I don't think you were that far off. You got to the right gravity after boiling, which is what the goal is. It should be low after the mash because you have to boil off water.

Make sense?

 

[RM-MN]

OK, so here's the consensus, I believe:

1. Use spring water instead of distilled water. Will do.

2. Crush the grain better. I'll have to blender it as I don't have a mill, but I've heard that works fine if you don't overdo it. Will do.

3. Perhaps use a thicker mash and do at least one batch sparge. How could I do this with just two vessels? I pick up the BIAB bag after mashing, the bag does the vorlauf, then where do I put my first runnings if I need my kettle to heat up and pour in my water for batch sparge? I would need another pot or something wouldn't I?

4. Get a kettle with a spigot. Get a spigot for my cooler. Get an affordable refractometer. I think I can do this as well.

So I will do #1, #2 and #4 on my next batch. I'm not sure how to do #3.

Also, related to efficiency, I've read that for really good numbers one should trickle out the runnings very, very slowly. Like over 30-45 minutes. Do they mean to do this for the first runnings and then again for the batch sparge runnings?

Nowhere to go but up eh?

If you get the grain crushed/ground well you won't need to do a sparge to get decent efficiency. I do the sparge step to accommodate the size of pot I use as much as the increased efficiency. You could do the sparge if you wanted to. See below.

You must have a bucket or a large sauce pan. Set your bag of grains into that and pour water (hot or cold, won't make much difference) and you have done a sparge. Pull the bag of grains out and hang to drip out or find a way to squeeze out the excess liquid. Pour the collected wort into the boil pot and clean up the bucket or pan you used.

The part about trickling out the runnings only applies to fly sparge. You won't be doing a fly sparge so you can forget about the trickling.

 

[Redlantern]

As a note - I have found a great deal of variation in pre-boil gravity until I stirred the wort. Seems the wort stratifies as you lauter.

After my first few months of brewing, I took a gravity sample and got about 1.040 (normal ish for the time). I stirred the wort, re-sampled and got 1.058. I do a fly sparge and take about an hour to do it. It was always confusing to that point why my pre-boil was so low, but OG was spot on. Now I know. Heavy first run sugar stayed at the bottom and the hotter, less sugar-laden sparge water stayed at the top

 

[RM-MN]

As a note - I have found a great deal of variation in pre-boil gravity until I stirred the wort. Seems the wort stratifies as you lauter.

After my first few months of brewing, I took a gravity sample and got about 1.040 (normal ish for the time). I stirred the wort, re-sampled and got 1.058. I do a fly sparge and take about an hour to do it. It was always confusing to that point why my pre-boil was so low, but OG was spot on. Now I know. Heavy first run sugar stayed at the bottom and the hotter, less sugar-laden sparge water stayed at the top

This is the same problem as extract brewers complain about often. Yes, high gravity wort is similar to extract and yes it doesn't instantly mix. Your boil does the mixing because you added the low gravity wort pre boil. With extract that top off is done post boil so the boil can't mix it in.

 

[Shawn3997]

I guess my first question was what number *should* I have had for pre-boil gravity. According to brewgr.com (online beer calculator), I got about 56% or so efficiency with the first batch at 1.032. To get 70% efficiency, which was my goal, I'd need to have a pre-boil gravity of 1.040 or higher, so that answers that question.

Second would be how to improve efficiency for the second batch and I've received tons of great help here from the beer geniuses on this site (thank you very much!).

I have two more pre-crushed and mixed bags of the same beer that I will do after I get a new kettle with a spigot and we'll cross our fingers and go for 1.040. Again, thanks to everyone for their help!!

EDIT: I should also mention that I stirred everything well. I've also had bad readings because of this so now I always stir a lot. That's a great point to make, though.

 

[doug293cz]

I guess my first question was what number *should* I have had for pre-boil gravity. According to brewgr.com (online beer calculator), I got about 56% or so efficiency with the first batch at 1.032. To get 70% efficiency, which was my goal, I'd need to have a pre-boil gravity of 1.040 or higher, so that answers that question.

Second would be how to improve efficiency for the second batch and I've received tons of great help here from the beer geniuses on this site (thank you very much!).

I have two more pre-crushed and mixed bags of the same beer that I will do after I get a new kettle with a spigot and we'll cross our fingers and go for 1.040. Again, thanks to everyone for their help!!

EDIT: I should also mention that I stirred everything well. I've also had bad readings because of this so now I always stir a lot. That's a great point to make, though.

I've also got you at about 56% mash efficiency, which is a combination of 86% lauter efficiency and 65% conversion efficiency. Your lauter efficiency is pretty darn good for no sparge, helped a lot by your aggressive squeezing which I estimate got you down to a grain absorption rate of about 0.06 gal/lb. The big problem is your conversion efficiency, apparently caused by your conversion rate being very slow. Lack of ions in the water, pH way out of range, and coarse crush are probable contributors here.

If you want to use distilled or reverse osmosis (RO) water (that are both basically ion free), you should add gypsum and calcium chloride according to the first post in this thread. That will give you the ions you need and get your pH at least close to the proper range.

If you have a good crush, and reasonable water, you should be able to achieve 95% or better conversion efficiency with a 60 minute mash. If your conversion efficiency had been 95%, your pre-boil gravity would have been about 1.045 - 1.046, and your mash efficiency would have been around 80%.

Congratulations on your first brew. You are off to a pretty good start.

Brew on