First AG: Update - Watered Down?

[Evan!]

I racked my first AG to secondary last night - a low-grav Brune Abbey Ale. I included a bunch of aromatic malt, some special B too, hoping for a rather malty belgian style brown. OG was 1.056, which is what I was shooting for. Cool. But my attenuation passed the listed range for the 1214, and I ended up with an FG of 1.011. Tasted it last night at racking, and while the nose is interesting (and plenty stinky from the yeast!), the beer seems a bit "thin". Now, don't get me wrong, it's still damn good beer, but I'm wondering if it's the stepped mash that converted too many of my sugars and dried it out too much.

Anyway, I guess what I want to know is, what's the best way to fix your grain bill to make a malty beer that still has good body? What kind of unfermentable grains can I put in there? Or should I skip the "133f for 30minutes" rest that I start with, and just go with an infusion mash, rather than stepped? I know that I could up my main rest temps to closer to 155 (I kept them around 151) and that might help too. Anyway, your input would be appreciated.

 

[Evan!]

Oh, here's the recipe:

English Abbey Brown Ale

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

10-C American Ale, American Brown Ale

Min OG: 1.045 Max OG: 1.060
Min IBU: 20 Max IBU: 48
Min Clr: 18 Max Clr: 35 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.25 Wort Size (Gal): 5.25
Total Grain (Lbs): 11.44
Anticipated OG: 1.056 Plato: 13.80
Anticipated SRM: 15.4
Anticipated IBU: 39.2
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72 %
Wort Boil Time: 70 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 6.36 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.046 SG 11.48 Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
83.1 9.50 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row) America 1.036 2
8.7 1.00 lbs. Aromatic Malt Belgium 1.036 25
4.4 0.50 lbs. Crystal 10L America 1.035 10
2.2 0.25 lbs. Chocolate Malt America 1.029 350
1.6 0.19 lbs. Special B Malt Belgian 1.030 120

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.50 oz. Fuggle Pellet 4.00 9.4 70 min.
1.00 oz. Goldings - E.K. Whole 6.00 24.8 55 min.
1.00 oz. Goldings - E.K. Whole 6.00 5.0 10 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.00 Tsp Gypsum Powder Other 60 Min.(boil)
0.25 Tsp Irish Moss Fining 15 Min.(boil)


Yeast
-----

WYeast 1214 Belgian Ale


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Multi Step

Grain Lbs: 11.44
Water Qts: 14.33 - Before Additional Infusions
Water Gal: 3.58 - Before Additional Infusions

Qts Water Per Lbs Grain: 1.25 - Before Additional Infusions

Protein Rest Temp : 133 Time: 30
Intermediate Rest Temp : 155 Time: 45
Saccharification Rest Temp : 158 Time: 20
Mash-out Rest Temp : 167 Time: 0
Sparge Temp : 170 Time: 0


Total Mash Volume Gal: 4.50 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.

 

[cweston]

My advice would probably be to concentrate on single-infusion mashes for the first several batches. It's much easier to control the fermentability of your wort that way. Single infusions are usually at about 149 to 155 F, and the lower the temp, the more fermentable the wort.

You can also add cara-pils to your mash, which tends to add more unfermentable sugars.

FWIW, when I brewed extract, I was mainly concerned with getting down to the target OG (which didn't always happen).

Since switching to AG (and full boils), my concern is usually the opposite (like your experience with this batch). I generally don't like my beers too dry, except specialized styles like a wit.

 

[zoebisch01]

Hey man, looks good. I dunno, you could omit that step and just push a single infusion at 155. I have learned to trust the infusion calculations like those found in Palmer and in your software. Just make sure it the water is well distributed in the mash as you add it. The reason I say all this is that I had conversion in like 20 minutes the other day (ala iodine test), and had been mucking around with the temp and was worried, didn't trust the calculations and tried measuring the temps. As it turned out my thermometer was a little off calibration (woohoo), so I was low and hence theoretically should get a lighter body as a result. In other words, the time of conversion was significant while I was fooling around. I still let the thing go a full hour, just because I am not all that experienced. Anyways, aside from my side note, I think it is much easier to start with single infusion. That way you leave it and let it roll. Either way, I think a few degrees can make a significant difference.

 

[mysterio]

I would second the above advice and say stick with a single infusion. Protein rests with fully modified malt (such as your 2-row) can result in a thin beer.

 

[Evan!]

Good to know. Wonder why papazian had me doing stepped mashes then? His Ag recipes usually have 2-row like I did. Hmm. Whatever. I'll try an infusion mash and see if that helps. Thanks!

 

[Evan!]

Also gonna add some carapils next time.

 

[cweston]

Papazian is like a god, but I do think some of his info is a little dated. I think that single-infusiuon mashing is much more the norm now--almost all malted grains are fullt modified and convert well in single-infusion mashes.

I know some folks here do step mashes and decoctions for specific purposes, but I think that a person could brew a lifetime of top-notch all-grain beers using only single infusions.

 

[the_bird]

Just an educated guess, but I suspect that malts today are better modified today (and therefore more suitable for single infusion mashes) than when Papazian was doing most of his writing.

EDIT: cweston, you ninja!

 

[Orfy]

Just hit 86% eff on a 40 minute single infusion mash. I'm sticking with it.

 

[the_bird]

Just hit 86% eff on a 40 minute single infusion mash. I'm sticking with it.

That's awesome. I can't wait to see what kind of efficiency I get on my brew this weekend, it's going to be a lot smaller so I should be able to sparge more than I have in the past without having to do an eight-hour boil.

 

[Evan!]

I have no problem with simplifying my mash sched. No problem whatsoever. And if I can shorten it too? Hell yeah.

So, guys, if I'm gonna do a single infusion mash, what temp and how long should it be? Do I need to bring it up to 158 to "complete the conversion" for 10-20 minutes, like Papazian says? Also, for this infusion mash, what would be a good lbs-grain : qts-water ratio?

 

[the_bird]

I've been shooting for 1.25 qts/lb for the mash. No need to raise the temp, although my last sparge I do a little high just to finish rinsing out the sugars. Temp target should be between 150 (dry) and 158 (sweet) generally. I know Beersmith will tell me all those numbers, I assume ProMash will as well.

If you're worried about the conversion "finishing," do a starch test with some iodine. Where you are within that range doesn't really determine convertability so much as how many of those sugars end up being fermentable (versus unfermentable dextrines). With that said, higher temps do tend to convert quicker, IIRC - but if you mash for an hour, you should be fully converted, regardless.

What are you using for a mash tun, again?

 

[Orfy]

In new money.

2.6l/kg strike at 77c to give 68c any where from 45 minutes up.

 

[zoebisch01]

You know something that I also read, but haven't proven to myself anyways is that thinner mashes ie. > 1.25 vs. ~ 1.00 mashes will help one approach a drier body. I am assuming this is because of a thermal affect with the water but I really don't know how or why. So that is another thing to keep in the back o' the ole' noodle.

Does anyone know a sound reason this would be true?

 

[the_bird]

You know something that I also read, but haven't proven to myself anyways is that thinner mashes ie. > 1.25 vs. ~ 1.00 mashes will help one approach a drier body. I am assuming this is because of a thermal affect with the water but I really don't know how or why. So that is another thing to keep in the back o' the ole' noodle.

Does anyone know a sound reason this would be true?

Read this thread for a lot of discussion of these issues:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=15584

In short, I've heard it posited that a thinner mash gives the enzymes more room to work.

 

[clayof2day]

Also, if you want to add some body after the fact, you can always add back some malto-dextrin at bottling time. Its pretty easy to predict the # of pts./unit wieght you will get out of it. It's not super soluble in water alone, but boil it and you should be fine. MD is essentially an extract version of Carapils and might help boost the body you are looking for.

 

[dantodd]

In new money.

2.6l/kg strike at 77c to give 68c any where from 45 minutes up.

Can you do that in shillings as well?

 

[the_bird]

Can you do that in shillings as well?

I swear to God, I screwed up my bathroom scale and it seems to be weighting me in "stones" now...

 

[Orfy]

I upped my mash ratio and my efficiency increased by around 8%, not sure if that was the sole reason. Danger of tannin extraction though.

 

[Evan!]

Also, if you want to add some body after the fact, you can always add back some malto-dextrin at bottling time. Its pretty easy to predict the # of pts./unit wieght you will get out of it. It's not super soluble in water alone, but boil it and you should be fine. MD is essentially an extract version of Carapils and might help boost the body you are looking for.

Yeah, I use maltodextrin alot. I keep it around for mixing in my meal shakes (me weightlift), because it's a great complex carb...but I was stoked when I found out I could use it in my beer. I think I might add some MD at bottling...though, it's not just the body that's lacking, it's the maltiness.

 

[zoebisch01]

Can you do that in shillings as well?

My vote is for sheckles.