First AG batches seem..

[Schlomo]

Really sweet for some reason.. Im talking after fermentation and kegging and what not.

I had some issues with efficiency for my first 2 batches (hit ~50%) and i notice it quite a bit in those. The 2 batches i did over the weekend i had the hbs double crush so i got better efficiency (76% and 82%) so that was good.

Anyone know if the sweetness I taste is from bad efficiency in the first 2 batches? I'll have to wait and see what happens with the other 2.

I havent been happy since my switch to AG, im doing eBIAB so i dont have any issues with equipment/brewing. But i feel the beer just hasn't been right yet..

Waiting for that one GREAT beer to come out of the ol' keggle.

 

[Bensiff]

I think we are still all waiting for that "one GREAT beer."

What were your gravities? Your efficiency shouldn't have anything to do with sweetness that is going to be with how much residual sugar you have.

 

[billl]

Sweet is going to come from 1 of 3 things.

1) The recipe includes some degree of naturally unfermentable sugars - eg crystal malts
2) The mash creates some unfermentable sugars - the higher the temp, the more you get.
3) The yeast don't convert all the sugars to alcohol.

If you post the recipe, mash schedule and fermentation conditions, we should be able to tell which option is resulting in the unwanted sweetness.

 

[Schlomo]

I'll post them when i get home from work, they're saved in beersmith

 

[jerrodm]

Schlomo--I take it that the residual sweetness was not a problem when you were brewing extract? If you're doing the same styles you were doing before, and your fermentation process and conditions haven't changed, then it's got to be a problem with your mash schedule or your ingredients, I would think. Either you've got a bunch of unfermentables (lactose, etc) or a too-high mash temp...could also be not enough or unhealthy yeast, although that should have manifested itself with extract batches as well. Post your process and recipe and we can tell better.

 

[Schlomo]

Sounds good. Thanks for the quick replies. I know my mash schedule is probably wrong, so that is my first guess. I only did 3 extract batches before going to AG, a scottish 80, Pumpkin ale, and winter spiced ale. All were good, but with the spiced ales it is harder to notice if it is sweet or not.

2 hearted clone
Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
10 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 76.9 %
2 lbs Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 2 15.4 %
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 3 3.8 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 4 3.8 %
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 31.8 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 6 15.8 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 7 6.3 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 1.0 min Hop 8 1.4 IBUs
1.0 pkg SafAle English Ale (DCL/Fermentis #S-04) [23.66 ml] Yeast 9 -
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 12.0 Days Hop 10 0.0 IBUs

OG was 1.046 at 6.0 gallons
FG was 1.010

Mashed in at 172 (what beersmith told me) and it fell to 168 (first time using keggle for eBIAB so i was WAY over temp, added a little cold water to bring it down to about 160. I couldnt heat during the mash so it fell down to 145 when 60 minutes was up. Mind you this was my first ever AG on a brand new system so yeah, be gentle. Add onto that my grain bag hadn't come in yet so i was using 2, 5g paint strainer bags so the grains were not easily flowing through the mash.

We'll just focus on this brew, i improved a little on the next and it does taste better, but its a porter.

The two brews i did over the weekend were much better. I had bought an ULWD element so i was able to maintain mash temps within 2 degrees. Mashed for 90 minutes to see if that made a difference, and took gravity readings at 60 and 90 (i gained 2 points with the extra 30 minutes)

Much closer on my extimated gravity but still a little low. They were smaller beers and ended up about on target. (8lb grain each)

Well thats about all i can think of right now, time for lunch!

Thanks again for the help, just trying to get ready for this weekends brew sessions.

 

[duboman]

First off be sure the thermometer you are using is calibrated so you are certain the temperatures you are reading is correct. If you want to say, mash at 152F then your strike water needs to be at 163F.

If you mash too high then you create a wort with less fermentable sugar chains that will not get converted by the yeast and your FG will become higher than anticipated, yielding a sweeter, full body to the finished beer. Conversely, if you mash lower you can get greater attenuation and a drier, thinner body in the finished product.

In addition and equally important is that your hydrometer is calibrated as well. Be sure it reads 1.000 in distilled water at the calibrated temperature which will be noted on the bottom of the little paper inside it. Usually this is 60F. Measuring tools are only good if they are accurate and many people find theirs are not what they expect

 

[NoTrubble]

I had a similar problem when I recently switched to AG from PM.

One thing I do now that I didn't use to do is test not only the gravity but starches to make sure the beer is converted. I've had two batches where the gravity was almost spot on but there were still uncoverted starches that led to those two being sweet. So I got a sweet beer (wasn't intended) and only realized this after I bottled it all.

Had I tested for starch conversion back then I would have known to pitch more yeast and wait a few more days before bottling but because the gravity was close enough for bottling I didn't realize it wasn't done. Overall it wasn't a real pain because it was a Belgian beer though. But at $90 for partial mash kit I was slightly a bit pissed that my LHBS didn't tell me to use more yeast when pitching because even though the beer was great, it had the potential for being AWESOME!

 

[jerrodm]

So my guess is that when you mashed in too high, you denatured much of the enzymes that would break down the starches in your beer into fermentable sugars. 160 is pretty high for a mash temp, and would lead to you having a pretty sweet, unfermentable wort, although not knowing how quickly your temp dropped makes it difficult to say how much of the wort's enzymes were denatures by the initial high temps. I don't know much about BIAB, so I'll leave it to others to get specific, but if you're looking for a beer with a drier (as opposed to a sweeter) finish, mashing somewhere in the 152-155F range would probably help quite a bit.

Cheers

 

[jerrodm]

I had a similar problem when I recently switched to AG from PM.

One thing I do now that I didn't use to do is test not only the gravity but starches to make sure the beer is converted. I've had two batches where the gravity was almost spot on but there were still uncoverted starches that led to those two being sweet. So I got a sweet beer (wasn't intended) and only realized this after I bottled it all.

Had I tested for starch conversion back then I would have known to pitch more yeast and wait a few more days before bottling but because the gravity was close enough for bottling I didn't realize it wasn't done. Overall it wasn't a real pain because it was a Belgian beer though. But at $90 for partial mash kit I was slightly a bit pissed that my LHBS didn't tell me to use more yeast when pitching because even though the beer was great, it had the potential for being AWESOME!

Holy smokes, $90 for a batch of beer? What was it, dipped in gold?

 

[thood6]

The part I don't understand is that if his mash was too high and left unfermentables in the wort, how did he get the FG to 1.010. Seems like there has to be something else going on here. But take that with a grain of salt as I'm a noob.

 

[Schlomo]

The part I don't understand is that if his mash was too high and left unfermentables in the wort, how did he get the FG to 1.010. Seems like there has to be something else going on here. But take that with a grain of salt as I'm a noob.

Yeah this made me think too. I've already checked my hydrometer in 60 deg distilled water and it reads 1.000 so that is good. I do need a better thermometer, the ones i have are not good..

 

[duboman]

The part I don't understand is that if his mash was too high and left unfermentables in the wort, how did he get the FG to 1.010. Seems like there has to be something else going on here. But take that with a grain of salt as I'm a noob.

I was troubled with that as well and that is why I asked if his measuring devices are calibrated because something seems off

 

[Jayhem]

I have two thermometers one is a stainless dial type and the other is a lab thermometer. The dial indicates 5 degrees higher mash temps than the lab thermometer.

 

[billl]

I think you've got a couple things going on.


1) high but irregular mash temps. For an IPA, I usually mash in the 148-149 range, so a 160 start is really high. You drifted over a WIDE range though. Controlling the temps in a narrow and predictable range should be an immediate goal. Do some test runs with water.

2) You are using an english yeast that tends to be a little fruitier and sweeter finishing that the american ale yeasts. The bells yeast is a very clean and neutral in comparison.

3) IBU's looks to be pretty low. Low bitterness lets any existing sweetness come through.

 

[brycelarson]

I have two thermometers one is a stainless dial type and the other is a lab thermometer. The dial indicates 5 degrees higher mash temps than the lab thermometer.

you can do a quick test - use crushed ice in water. Check both thermometers - they should read 32 deg. Boiling water = 212 deg.

 

[Jayhem]

you can do a quick test - use crushed ice in water. Check both thermometers - they should read 32 deg. Boiling water = 212 deg.

I don't trust those tests. Just because a thermometer is accurate at freezing and boiling does not mean it is accurate at mash temps.

 

[Bensiff]

2) You are using an english yeast that tends to be a little fruitier and sweeter finishing that the american ale yeasts. The bells yeast is a very clean and neutral in comparison.

3) IBU's looks to be pretty low. Low bitterness lets any existing sweetness come through.

Here you go, you finished at 1.010 meaning you cleared out your sugars and you don't have any significant amount of unfermentables hanging around. So, you used a yeast that accentuates the sweetness while having lower IBU's that are not balancing out the style like you expected.

 

[Schlomo]

Here you go, you finished at 1.010 meaning you cleared out your sugars and you don't have any significant amount of unfermentables hanging around. So, you used a yeast that accentuates the sweetness while having lower IBU's that are not balancing out the style like you expected.

Makes Sense. I'll have to bump up the IBU's and pair it with, say, us-05 or something like that in the future. I'll be brewing this again sometime for sure, so i'll post up the difference on here when i do.

I think now that i have the process beginning to solidify and my equipment working in my favor that I can easily hold mash temps. I'll ferment lower, say 147 or so and see what happens.

 

[brycelarson]

I don't trust those tests. Just because a thermometer is accurate at freezing and boiling does not mean it is accurate at mash temps.

Really? I could see it being accurate at one end of the range but not the other and missing the mark in the middle - but have you ever seen one be accurate at two divergent temperatures then miss at a third between them?

Not arguing with you - I'm just curious.

 

[NoTrubble]

Holy smokes, $90 for a batch of beer? What was it, dipped in gold?

It is for this very reason that I switched immediately to all grain. And I still get raped on the prices because he's the only show in town.

His partial mash kits go for $45-$60 or so. The extra cost was for all the additional extract and 1lb of DME. The OG on the kit was 1.080 I think.

My latest Belgian brew is MUCH more cost effective and turned out to be about $37 for 13# of grain, hops ($4/oz) and yeast $8.59!

 

[Schlomo]

It is for this very reason that I switched immediately to all grain. And I still get raped on the prices because he's the only show in town.

His partial mash kits go for $45-$60 or so. The extra cost was for all the additional extract and 1lb of DME. The OG on the kit was 1.080 I think.

My latest Belgian brew is MUCH more cost effective and turned out to be about $37 for 13# of grain, hops ($4/oz) and yeast $8.59!

Wow. Glad i dont have to shell out that kind of money for brews. Makes it a little bit easier on the wallet when i get some not-as-planned brews.

 

[jerrodm]

Yeah, go all grain it's a world of difference. I just did a 5 gal. batch on Sunday, OG 1.062, for about $18.

 

[Schlomo]

I've got another question for you guys. So i kegged the beer i was mentioning along with another beer i brewed that weekend while i had a few too many homebrews i guess, to notice that they are still VERY green. Is it ok for me to take them out of the keezer and let them age a bit longer? or is it fine if i just leave them at 40 deg or so to age?

 

[passedpawn]

Next time please complete your thought in the thread title so 100,000 members don't need to click on it to see what the topic is. Thanks.

 

[Schlomo]

Next time please complete your thought in the thread title so 100,000 members don't need to click on it to see what the topic is. Thanks.

The thread has 25 views and 24 comments. I understand your reasoning, and I will in the future, but it sounds to me like someone needs to RDWHAHB

 

[passedpawn]

The thread has 25 views and 24 comments. I understand your reasoning, and I will in the future, but it sounds to me like someone needs to RDWHAHB

I'm not upset. But the next guy might be. Good luck with your brewing.

 

[Schlomo]

I'm not upset. But the next guy might be. Good luck with your brewing.

Thank you, you as well. And i'll be sure to be more detailed in my titles in the future.

 

[jerrodm]

I think your next title should be, "If you don't open this thread, you'll never find out what I have to say"

Or maybe something a little less leading like, "So the other day I was on my way to the strip club, when..."

 

[Yooper]

Next time please complete your thought in the thread title so 100,000 members don't need to click on it to see what the topic is. Thanks.

He has a point! I only clicked on it to see if, with 28 posts, the thread was going off topic (and it was ). I had no interest in responding because I didn't know what the thread was about.

But now since I'm here, and read the actual problem, then I have a couple of thoughts!

The big variation in mash temp could be an issue, so I have a couple of ideas for next time. One is to stir very very very well (and maybe you did) so that the mash temp is the same everywhere when you check it in a couple of places. Find a good thermometer- they don't have to be expensive. Find a way to hold heat- insulate the mashtun, wrap with a sleeping bag, etc. Losing 15 degrees is too much in an hour! If you start at 160, that's too hot but an ice cube or two should get you right in the 153 degree range.

 

[MrSpiffy]

Just a little tip from the n00b all-grainer:

I don't have an insulated mash tun, since I'm going BIAB. I found that by wrapping the kettle in a blanket during the mash, I was able to hold my temp VERY steady over the course of an hour. My thermometer moved maybe 1-2°F over that time, whereas my first BIAB just sat with the lid on over the stove and dropped a good 15°F or more over that same time period. Not sure what your setup is, but hope that can help.

 

[Jayhem]

Just a little tip from the n00b all-grainer:

I don't have an insulated mash tun, since I'm going BIAB. I found that by wrapping the kettle in a blanket during the mash, I was able to hold my temp VERY steady over the course of an hour. My thermometer moved maybe 1-2°F over that time, whereas my first BIAB just sat with the lid on over the stove and dropped a good 15°F or more over that same time period. Not sure what your setup is, but hope that can help.

This OR set your brew pot in an oven at the same temp that you want to mash and it will stay at that temp!

 

[Schlomo]

Just a little tip from the n00b all-grainer:

I don't have an insulated mash tun, since I'm going BIAB. I found that by wrapping the kettle in a blanket during the mash, I was able to hold my temp VERY steady over the course of an hour. My thermometer moved maybe 1-2°F over that time, whereas my first BIAB just sat with the lid on over the stove and dropped a good 15°F or more over that same time period. Not sure what your setup is, but hope that can help.

I've solved the issue of holding mash temps by installing a ULWD element in my keggle. I had 2 HWD elements in there before so i was worried about melting my bag (myth or not) but it works great now.

In an effort to sum up this thread, i've narrowed it down to being my mash in temp of 17x degrees. It was way to high and reading that the higher the mash temp can create a sweeter flavor im assuming that is what it was.

Thanks everyone for the responses and the tips, it is nice for a new AG brewer to have an amazing community of HB'ers to ask questions.

Cheers