First 5-gal, aged LME, duh...

[Murrayatuptown]

OK, I'll start with 'duh'. Moving on...

First 5-gal extract kit brew commences Sunday the 13th (Dec. 2020). Outdoors, hopefully snow instead of rain.

Procrastination takes time. So does making room to park the carboys. Too much krap.

Anyway, the important thing is actually starting this.

I have had an AIH Zywiec Porter Clone extract kit for my guess is 12-18 months.

I just read that's a ballpark best-by timeline for LME, and that some kind of alteration to taste can occur.

I can't turn back time, but it will probably not take so long to choose & use the next kit...kits for me for a while. I've done about 4 1-gal. DME kits & only problems were boilover, fermentation stall (or just lag) due to not realizing cement basement floor was colder than air temp. Oh, and pulling two necks off bottles with a squeeze capper.

The kit is a Baltic Porter that uses lager yeast, which will hopefully be more tolerant of 63-65 F floor. S-189, off the top of my head. Using two packets, good thru 12/20, in refrigerator since procurement.

Ordered yeast fuel & alcohol boost at time of purchase, and Fast Pitch later while still adding gear.

Back to the elder-extract. I told myself if I see an mold on top...scoop that off.

I imagine LME taste decline might be worse on a lighter brew, but this is a Porter that perhaps could be called an Imperial Porter. I won't say stout because it's got lager in the history.

I was a little anxious about Baltics I've tasted, liking half of them, and not as much the others. The best (for me) had additional additives (or adjuncts?).

Oh yeah, the questions:

Any thoughts on the heaviness and alcohol level (9.8% or higher) making age less obvious?

Or a 4 oz packet of cocoa nibs & maybe some form of espresso in secondary? (Best porter I've had was Crooked Stave, which had both...but I don't recall if it was Baltic.

Thank you for your assistance and patience. (TMI is my middle initial)

Murray

 

[Dinadan]

I have never tried brewing what you are talking about. My only thought is that maybe you should brew the kit as sold. If it tastes great then you are good. If you start adding stuff and it is bad, then you will not know if it is the kit ingredients that are off or the stuff you added.

 

[Murrayatuptown]

True.

I was looking at the additives as a 'coverup'. If it doesn't turn out well, I can blame my failure to follow the use-by instrux.

Good advice to not toss a watermelon, marshmallows and a pair of dirty sox in to hide bad beer, but my goal is to end up with something palatable. That's a more important goal for a relative newbie to stay encouraged. I've never had a bad kit result, so I assume any poor results point fingers at me rather than the kit.

'Lame' is higher on the failure scale than 'Poison Control Center'!

I suppose having invested in the equipment is incentive that could outweigh failure.

 

[Dinadan]

Well, I agree that staying encouraged is important. And someone has to be the first to discover that something tastes great!

 

[Murrayatuptown]

REALLY long story behind choosing that particular kit, but not really relevant to my questions.

I guess one step at a time...get the wort made, then the next step. Worry about taste when it's ready.

And I suppose there's the fine art of blending.

I recently bought a howler of someone's seasonal darkish beer. It was dead flat...I think two bubbles in the whole bottle...I got over my disgust fairly quickly. I mixed it 50:50 with a grocery store IPA I Iiked about 80% to re-carbonate. It made it drinkable, I got a little more MPG out of the howler, & I didn't hold a grudge. I wasn't even going to say anything to them, because I did drink it all (courtesy of the IPA antidote) but my wife did, and they replaced it for me. Win-win...just changed the rules ( or the game).

Pragmatic and flexible assessment is my short-term mindset...if I survive to tell the tale, and learn from my mistakes, that's a form of success.

I remember the first time I tried a sour (unknowingly) at a brewery. Eventually, I walked to the bar and diplomatically requested more info about the brew. The bartender's explanation sounded sincere enough to assure me it was SUPPOSED taste that way. I remembered the word lactobacillus. I forced myself to finish it. One person's failure is another person's success. Or trash vs. treasure analogy.

Or I can boil a hell of a lot sausages in the result if all else fails.

Yeah, call it optimism...the glass is always full...sometimes it's half air, or all air.

 

[Murrayatuptown]

Scary LME...forget 6-18 month shelf life. Package recommended use within 1 month. Probably between 12 & 18 months old.
There was mold on top where there was air. Spooned it out, cleaned surfaces of plastic jars that obviously needed it with cotton swabs & wet paper towels. Probably not perfect, but at least I got rid of anything I could see.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Mold can produce allergens, toxins, and/or carcinogens. Scooping off the visible mold does not remove the health hazard. You should dump it.

 

[Murrayatuptown]

I just read a couple papers on ergotism, decided to see if the one local brew supply store that is open on Sundays isn't closed by COVID.

Came back here, just read several explanations of how it can never happen with subsequent brewing steps, started to feel better about the risk, then saw your response...and your RPh title.

You bring up other potential effects, and I believe there are about 3000 types of fungi.

So I think I would rather not gamble with other unknown side effects, some of which may not be evident for years, or ever be associated with a lack of good judgement one day in the past. I can think of a number of breweries I turned my nose up at, or who went out of business because their whole product range turned into 'sours'.

It's cheaper to go buy more LME and use it right away, or delay brew day.

Thank you

 

[Murrayatuptown]

Bought fresh LME this AM. They didn't have same type DME so I crossed off that option.

Delayed brew start due to road trip for fresh LME.

To my surprise, easier than 1-gallon grief-brews. 7-1/2 gal pot helped with space for boil. No boilover, forgot to sanitize wort chiller but did wash it before first use & gave wort 10 minutes of reheat with chiller then decided I couldn't really undue that step & moved on. Preparing aerator before Fast Pitch/yeast right now.

Could have been more stressful, so I'm happy it was pretty easy.

Thanks for all the coaching.

 

[jrgtr42]

Good call getting new LME - mold is nothing to fool with.
Potential infections once fermenting is a different story, but let's not get into that for now.
Sounds like everything else went well. All you need now is patience. I know it's tempting, but leave your fermenter alone for a couple weeks.

 

[Murrayatuptown]

I assume I will need extra patience because I added a 14 oz pack of 'alcohol boost' corn sugar.

The recipe called for 6# of Munich LME. Store only had 3.3# jars, so that's 10% more also.

I aerated my wort before pitching yeast, and it was so foamy I didn't think it would settle. I used a hydrometer best I could with the foam. O.G. was higher than the instrux list. Top of the foam is a lower number. (1.112 @63.0 F). Couldn't see meniscus but assumed it was at bottom of 5 mm foam layer...about 1.120.

At that point I realized achieving target O.G. isn't the hard part. It's the F.G. Fingers & eyes crossed.

I have a 2nd glass carboy & planned on cacao nibs. Didn't really think about it before, but it looks pretty impractical to shove and remove a bag of additives through a carboy neck. I suppose I could shift gears to a brewing bucket, but I already have space problems storing all this stuff.

 

[Murrayatuptown]

This is my first brew with fermentation visibly and audibly happening 30 hours later (I haven't looked at it for 15 hours)!

My biggest fear in brewing is no bubbles.

 

[jrgtr42]

well, you're going to have a much higher OG because of the extra fermentables you added - the extra .6lb of extract, plus the pound plus of extra sugar. The good news is, witha brew calculator, it'd be easy to find out - as long as your volumes are right, it's almost impossible to drastically miss OG on extract brews.
IN the future, you can get a hydrometer tube, sacrifice a few ounces of wort to get an accurate reading. Or a refractometer, that just needs a couple drops. Those don't read accurately in the presence of alcohol, so you can either use the hydrometer or there are refractometer calculators online.
As far as adding the nibs, honestly you don't really have to rack it to secondary - that's only necessary for long-term storage, like months and months. A few days or a couple weeks isn't a big deal.
|For the FG, adding all that extra fermentables will drive the final gravity up, so don't get too anxious - what the final would be will depend on a lot of other factors - again that brew calculator will help.

But sounds like you have action - that's a good sign. |But bubbles in the airlock aren't a be-all and end-all sign of things happenning - there could be leaks around the stopper, or something - or things could be happennng slowly.

 

[Murrayatuptown]

OK...I did use the floating hydrometer, & a clean wine thief.

I don't know how long to leave the first fermentation...previous brews didn't show activity so I couldn't sense a start/stop difference.

If I'm going to do a secondary, I imagine the exact duration of primary might not be critical...(like +/- some days, not weeks).

Is duration of primary based on activity or gravity measurements?

Since it has 'big' (or perhaps rotund) possibilities, is it wise to let secondary take longer (couple months vs. couple weeks?). My gut feeling is this one shouldn't be rushed.

I am reading some articles on nibs & coffee, particularly re: sanitation. I'm thinking about a water extraction or vodka tincture. Maybe when transferring to secondary I could put some in the 1-gallon sealable bucket I bought bulk LME in, and 'treat' one batch with one additive and the other with neither or both.

The hand siphon has been the most unpleasant part of the transition from 1-gal to 5-gal.

I don't know if anyone else benefits from my chaotic notekeeping & questions within this thread, but it seems to me this is after all, MY learning opportunity, and however disorganized, it's all in one place.

So, apologies to anyone who is wondering WT...?

Thanks for all the responses. I read books, but can't find things a 2nd time that I didn't write down if it wasn't of interest the 1st time thru...table of contents & index aren't usually detailed enough (& might have grabbed the wrong book...or was it a web page?)

Wort is thumping about twice as fast as last night. More foam & some crud (for lack of proper term) on the carboy curve.

Wine-thiefing without a dose of foam for hydrometer is a small challenge.

My air-lock is a rubber carboy cap with the small exit tube capped, the large exit tube has the 'cup' of a multi-piece airlock jammed in it, & a hose forced over the internal tube of that airlock component. The hose goes into a one-gal water jug with some water in it. So the airlock component is just serving as a 'plumbing coupler'.

The carboy is 6.5 gal with some head space because it was a 5 gal batch.

Oops, I did forget to add water to the Fast Pitch & yeast packets but added water to the cooled partial boil output.

I almost forgot the last two sugar additions & extended the 60 minute boil to probably 70-75 (forgot to start 2nd timer on phone!). Boil wasn't as rolling for this last part...I wonder if late sugar addition has to foam in boil, or is it for fermention, anyway? Otherwise it would be earlier).

Thanks

 

[RM-MN]

My biggest fear in brewing is no bubbles.

I ferment in buckets and the lids often leak so I don't always get bubbles and I use one bucket without an airlock so that one never bubbles. I still get beer every time. The real indicator in a bucket or carboy is the krausen ring. If you see a krausen ring above the beer, if fermented.

I don't know how long to leave the first fermentation...previous brews didn't show activity so I couldn't sense a start/stop difference.

If I'm going to do a secondary, I imagine the exact duration of primary might not be critical...(like +/- some days, not weeks).

Is duration of primary based on activity or gravity measurements?

You can leave the beer in the primary fermenter for a long time. I've only left one for 9 weeks but I have heard of longer. Forget the secondary. It doesn't really help anything except in rare occasions but it does allow for oxidation and/or infection. The duration in the primary is based on gravity measurements (to verify you don't have a stuck fermentation) and beer clarity. I prefer to leave my beer longer so the trub settles in the primary fermenter instead of in my bottles.

 

[Murrayatuptown]

Is there a difference between the meringue-like wort foam from initially aerating, and Kraeusen?

After several days, that foam did get consumed, but I don't really see any grungy-looking stuff I expected.

Sunday Eve will be two weeks in primary. Yesterday I could hear one thump about every 10-11 seconds.

Thank you

 

[Murrayatuptown]

Sometimes searching finds all the wrong things...today I found many other people asking same things...and more answers to things I didn't ask yet (& don't need to). Early image: looked the same before pitching & after to my naive eyes.

 

[Murrayatuptown]

12 days: 16 seconds between 'thumps'.

 

[Shimmy1]

Mold can produce allergens, toxins, and/or carcinogens. Scooping off the visible mold does not remove the health hazard. You should dump it.

RPh, we salvaged a couple of carboys of cider that had developed pellicles. We had 5 total that time got away from us, 2 tasted perfectly fine, and two had a slightly mushroom-y taste. Those we dumped, the ones that tasted fine we still have. Opinion?

 

[Murrayatuptown]

I think I will take the advice to skip 2ndary, and skip coffee & cacao nibs. I am quarantined this week so leaving the beer alone suits me fine. The one thing taste-related that has gone nuts for me this week is espresso tastes 10x worse than before. I drink it for medicinal value alone, not taste! No incentive to add something I'm repulsed by (hopefully temporarily!).

I am getting the 'don't worry' thing right now, out of convenience.

Thanks

 

[RPh_Guy]

RPh, we salvaged a couple of carboys of cider that had developed pellicles. We had 5 total that time got away from us, 2 tasted perfectly fine, and two had a slightly mushroom-y taste. Those we dumped, the ones that tasted fine we still have. Opinion?

A pellicle is entirely different than mold. There's no issue with drinking fermented beverages that formed a pellicle.
A "mushroom" taste isn't a problem by itself either. Yeast is a fungus, and can produce a variety of interesting flavors. Autolysis is another process that is well-known to produce a variety of savory flavors, which may include mushroom.

Mold is the only thing we need to worry about.

 

[Murrayatuptown]

My first 5 gallon extract (with bag-o-grains) kit...AIH Zywiec Porter (Baltic) clone.

Their numbers:
O.G. 1.112
F.G. 1.028
ABV 10.8%

Some mishaps & tweaks. Replaced moldy LME (my fault- 12-18 months procrastination). Munich LME replacement was metric 2x3.3# vs original 6# bulk (10% more), light LME same but fresh 5#. Added 14 oz. corn sugar alcohol boost out of fear I would not be even close to the recipe.

Doubled yeast (2 packs Saflager S-189), used NB Fast Pitch, aerated before pitching. To a newbie, I was very intrigued by the use of a lager yeast because I have trouble with ale fermentation in my 63-66 F basement. That was perfect for me and that yeast.

My #'s
O.G. 1.120 63 F IIRC
1st F.G. @ 4-2/3 weeks 1.026 @ 64F

About 12.3%, aside from whatever inaccuracy comes from the approximation disclaimer of the (O.G.-F.G.) x 131.25.

I am happy with that, just as a goal.

I think that's close enough to 60 F to not correct for temperature.

I think I achieved my goal...to at least match the recipe's ABV.

I will check F.G. Fri & Sat (it can't it lower after nearly 5 weeks, can it?)... & bottle with priming sugar Sunday.

I have never been a fan of drinking flat or uncarbonated beer, but no objections to first taste.


4.5 weeks in 6.5 gallon carboy.

Gotta name it, as it's the only place people tolerate pretentiousness. Thinking of including the initials SBP for Single Bottle Porter for two reasons:

Abandoning the original plan of secondary carboy fermentation
and
Suggested serving size. )

So what kind of inaccuracy is in the hygrometer ABV estimation formula?

Thank you

 

[Murrayatuptown]

Hydrometer, not hygrometer. Not swingin' a wet sock around the room to measure r.h.

 

[Murrayatuptown]

(S-189 vs. Lutra vs. HA-18)

I'm not sure if it's better (visibility for replies) to post my own questions for a re-run of this same brew, or create a new question. Tacking onto someone else's thread seems too far off.

I was very pleased with how this turned out...but could do it differently next time.

Shared too much, as a few people I gave a bottle or two in Jan. or Feb. still haven't tried it. I tell them everyone else survived so they needn't fear the beer. If it's too big, they can share it...

Was hard to bottle carbonate...probably because the 12.34% ABV was a tax on the S-189. I used a pack of priming sugar that I can't remember being 4 or 5 oz. I have more of the same, so I can check. Hoarded a couple six packs for the 1-year-bottled anniversary.

Thinking about what I'd do differently on a 2nd batch. Not make the 6.6# vs. 6# LME replacement error (necessitated by 18 months procrastination).

I used a 14 oz. corn sugar alcohol boost pack out of fear I'd be nowhere near target ABV. Might keep that.

I aerated, used two packs of S-189 in a can of NB FastPitch. Didn't read the can...possibly should have used two and waited 15 minutes instead of 5.

It worked despite not a very visually aggressive fermentation...only complaint (if even) is the carbonation level.

I have been reading about Lutra kveik. This looks like a good option, too. What's appealing is the speed & the tolerance of extremes.

In searching for a Fermentis kveikish product, HA-18 keeps appearing...probably Google's fault...Fermentis doesn't relate it to kveik, but it appears to have a pretty wide tolerance range of sugar, alcohol & fermentation temperature. That may be where the similarity ends.

I see on the web numerous people happy with Lutra for Baltic Porter, so that's not really a question...

I guess I am curious about whether a single packet of Lutra is enough (with FastPitch).

Thanks