Finishing off cider? (back-carb, back-sweeten, pasteurizing)

[jstluise]

Newbie here, happy to be joining such a informative community!

I'm in the middle of my first batch of cider and it is going very well! I am still undecided of what I am going to do when it comes time to bottle it, so that is the topic of this post.

Some info:
-8 gallons of freshly pressed cider, split into to two batches. Added campden tablets and sat 48hrs before adding pectic enzyme, yeast nutrient, and pitching the yeast. The juice was very sweet to start with (sg 1.054) so I did not add any sugar. One batch is Nottingham and the other is S-04.

-Sat in primary for 2 weeks, then racked to secondary (sg 1.000). It started clearing up very nicely just a few days after racking. Currently at 2 weeks in secondary.



I have been reading up quite a bit what comes next, and the different methods people seem to follow. Here are the options that I have come up with. Also I should note that my end goal is to have slightly sweet, carbonated cider (I enjoy commercial ciders in the 3-6g of sugar/12oz range).

1. Sweeten with alcohol sugar (e.g. xylitol) and back-carb with sugar (e.g. dextrose) when bottling. Wait for carbonation, then straight to the fridge.

2. Same as number 1, but bottle pasteurize after desired carbonation is achieved.

3. Sweeten with fermentable sugar when bottling. Wait for desired carbonation before going to fridge or bottle pasteurizing.

These seem to be the only option for carbonated cider since I don't have any force-carbing equipment, otherwise we get into cold crashing until the yeast has settled out...or using sulfite/sorbate...before back sweetening.

My original plan was to go with option 1, but the idea of bottle pasteurizing sounds appealing since 8 gallons of cider is a lot to keep cold. Or can it be stored at room temp (un-pasteurized) without worry, as long as I am careful with the amount of back-carb sugar I add?

I didn't consider option 3 because it seems like a bit of a guessing game.

Any input would be appreciated!

 

[phug]

If you uses carb sugar calculator properly and do all your sweetening with xylitol then your end product should be shelf stable at room temp without the need for pasteurizing



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[acemannw]

I did option 1. and used the Xyilo to backsweeten the Cider. I then carbed with 4.5 oz of Dextrose. My Cider is turning out great and I think love it. It took a full two weeks to get the bubbles so be patient and wait the full 2 weeks.

 

[jstluise]

Thanks guys, looks like I'll stick with option 1 and be careful to measure out my priming sugar. That way I can store it at room temp like phug mentioned.

I've been look at priming tables to get an idea of what kind of CO2 volumes I can get with different amounts of sugars. Also, from a bit of looking around it seems like 1.0-3.0 vols is the preferred for cider. Any input on CO2 vols? Figured I would shoot for 2 vols and see what that is like.

Acemannw, with your 4.5 oz of dextrose into 6 gallons (equivalent to 3.75 oz/5 gallons) you get around 1.2 vols CO2. How do you like the carbonation? Would you prefer more for your next batch?

https://byo.com/resources/carbonation

 

[davesgang]

Following.
Interested in how the artificial sweeteners taste?
I always back sweeten and prime with apple juice and then pasteurize the bottles. Not having to pasteurize would save time.

 

[phug]

I usually shoot for somewhere between 2 and 3 vols, the bubbles keep me happy but I'm not too picky. And since I prime with apple juice concentrate I figure there might be some variance


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[jstluise]

I was thinking that I'll use two different priming sugars when it comes time to bottle: dextrose and apple juice concentrate. This will give me four different end products (2 different yeasts, 2 different priming sugars).

As far as measuring out the apple juice concentrate, I've read that the sucrose (table sugar) is similar enough to fructose (found in apple juice concentrate) when it comes to fermenting that we can use the priming tables for sucrose. Using the table, one can of Tree Top apple juice concentrate (156 g sugar) should yield around 2.16 vols (in 5 gallons of cider). Sound about right?

Planning on bottling up everything this weekend!

 

[phug]

Sounds about right to me


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[jstluise]

Well I checked the progress of my carbonation after sitting two weeks in the bottle and I am a bit disappointed. Only could see a few tiny bubbles after opening the bottle (very little pressure buildup also), and no bubbles after pouring into a glass. It tasted great, but it was still very still. I was hoping two weeks would be enough time.

I have four variations: nottingham w/ dextrose, nottingham w/ apple juice concentrate, s-04 w/ dextrose, s-04 w/ apple juice concentrate.

I didn't try any of the bottles with apple juice concentrate; maybe they worked better. The only other thing I can think of is that my temp was too cold, though I was trying to keep the bottles around 55-60F. I will try them out again this weekend and if nothing I'll move them inside where it will be 60-65F. It was only in the secondary for 4 weeks, so I wouldn't think the yeast would have settled out (I've heard this can happen after multiple months in second or third rack.

I was careful with my measurements and was aiming for 2.5 vols.

Thoughts?

 

[moze229]

The only other thing I can think of is that my temp was too cold, though I was trying to keep the bottles around 55-60F. I will try them out again this weekend and if nothing I'll move them inside where it will be 60-65F.

I think this is a big part of your findings. There is still plenty of yeast for carbonation left in suspension. Move them inside and check one in a week. Wait another two weeks and you'll be happy.

And, I'll be looking forward to your findings on the yeast strains. I'll be performing almost the exact experiment, although I'll only be priming with concentrate and I'm using S-05 instead of S-04. I'll save my dextrose priming for beer.

 

[Yooper]

. The only other thing I can think of is that my temp was too cold, though I was trying to keep the bottles around 55-60F.
Thoughts?

Yep. Get it up to 70-75 if you can. The yeast may go completely dormant at 55, and incredibly sluggish at 60, if active at all.

 

[jstluise]

I think this is a big part of your findings. There is still plenty of yeast for carbonation left in suspension. Move them inside and check one in a week. Wait another two weeks and you'll be happy.

And, I'll be looking forward to your findings on the yeast strains. I'll be performing almost the exact experiment, although I'll only be priming with concentrate and I'm using S-05 instead of S-04. I'll save my dextrose priming for beer.

Thanks for the reply. The temp is the only thing I can think of being my issue. I'll warm it up and give it another week to see what happens.

I tried the Nottingham and S-04 (back sweetened slightly, 5g/12oz) side by side when I was trying out the carbonation and I really couldn't tell any difference in them. I'll have to sit down for a more careful tasting next time

Yep. Get it up to 70-75 if you can. The yeast may go completely dormant at 55, and incredibly sluggish at 60, if active at all.

Yeah after looking around I bit I am too cold. I had everything out in my shop from the start, which was around 60F. The fermentation went fine and was able to get everything down to SG 1.000 with the Not and S-04. Figured the bottles would be fine in the same place but I'm thinking the colder weather pushed the temp down a bit compared to when I started back mid October. I'll move everything inside to liven up the yeast! Just as a reference, here is what I found for recommended temp for the yeasts:

Nottingham: 57F-70F
S-04: 59F-75F

 

[moze229]

For carbonation, you want to be on the higher end of that scale. You can even cheat a little and go just a bit higher for more speed. Not too high though - I hear yeasties working too fast create bad flavor results.

Otherwise, it just takes entirely too long. If you've got a batch and have nothing but time, it will eventually carb up at lower temps. But who wants to wait two months for drinking?

 

[MarkKF]

"I tried the Nottingham and S-04 (back sweetened slightly, 5g/12oz) side by side when I was trying out the carbonation and I really couldn't tell any difference in them. I'll have to sit down for a more careful tasting next time "

Those two are very similar. I've been told that Notty has a unique flavor and odor but I can't tell the difference.

I bottle condition close to 70 deg.

 

[AidanSavage]

For carbonation, you want to be on the higher end of that scale. You can even cheat a little and go just a bit higher for more speed. Not too high though - I hear yeasties working too fast create bad flavor results.

Otherwise, it just takes entirely too long. If you've got a batch and have nothing but time, it will eventually carb up at lower temps. But who wants to wait two months for drinking?

Make a still batch to drink while waiting for your carbing to finish

 

[Rbar]

Im having the same problem with carbonation. I primed a 1 gallon small batch with 3 tbsp of honey and all I get are visible bubbles on the sides, but no fizz in the cider. After a month in the bottle it's still incredibly sour. Anybody got any ideas?

 

[MindenMan]

jstluise, put a six-pack on top of the fridge for a week, unless your fridge is in the garage.

 

[jstluise]

Thanks all for the replies.

Well after two weeks of sitting in my house, yesterday was time to see how things were doing. I had mix results.

First bottle I tried was the S-04 back-carbed with apple juice concentrate. Didn't hear much of a release when I popped the bottle open, but definitely got some bubbles appearing after I poured a glass!



And it tasted great too with fizz. Great! Finally my cider is ready...or so I thought.

I tried out the S-04 with dextrose next and disappointingly it came out with no bubbles...just still. Thinking it was maybe the difference between the dextrose and apple juice concentrate, I tried the Nott with apple juice concentrate only to find it was still also.

My temp still might be too low, since my house thermostat is set at 60F a majority of the time unless we are home and not sleeping (68F). But, I thought it was weird to find part of my batch carbonated...figured if one would be carbonated the rest would be also.

I guess I'll bring my bottles into work and store them in my office, where it stays consistently 65-70F.

 

[AidanSavage]

Thanks all for the replies.

Well after two weeks of sitting in my house, yesterday was time to see how things were doing. I had mix results.

First bottle I tried was the S-04 back-carbed with apple juice concentrate. Didn't hear much of a release when I popped the bottle open, but definitely got some bubbles appearing after I poured a glass!



And it tasted great too with fizz. Great! Finally my cider is ready...or so I thought.

I tried out the S-04 with dextrose next and disappointingly it came out with no bubbles...just still. Thinking it was maybe the difference between the dextrose and apple juice concentrate, I tried the Nott with apple juice concentrate only to find it was still also.

My temp still might be too low, since my house thermostat is set at 60F a majority of the time unless we are home and not sleeping (68F). But, I thought it was weird to find part of my batch carbonated...figured if one would be carbonated the rest would be also.

I guess I'll bring my bottles into work and store them in my office, where it stays consistently 65-70F.

Nottingham is a yeast that drops out pretty quickly when you cold crash or fermentation hits dry. By any chance were the carbed bottles the last bottles you filled? You may have disturbed the yeast cake and picked some up with the final bottles. That can be why part of the batch is carbonated and some isnt.

But yea, keeping at warmer temps can help the remaining yeast carb the bottles with sufficient speed.

 

[jstluise]

Nottingham is a yeast that drops out pretty quickly when you cold crash or fermentation hits dry. By any chance were the carbed bottles the last bottles you filled? You may have disturbed the yeast cake and picked some up with the final bottles. That can be why part of the batch is carbonated and some isnt.

But yea, keeping at warmer temps can help the remaining yeast carb the bottles with sufficient speed.

Before I bottled, I racked off the carboy so I wouldn't have to deal with any of the lees. I racked everything to a large sterilized fermenting barrel, then split that up for my different carbing methods. So, the cider was about as uniform as it could get during bottling. And, when I mixed in my sugar for back-sweetening and back-carbing, I was sure to mix it thoroughly until it dissolved and right before bottling because I have heard about people having inconsistent bottles.

I read about yeast dropping out eventually after a significant amount of time in a 2nd or 3rd rack (on the order of >3 months), but in my case start to bottle was only 7 weeks. Also, my temp toward the end of the secondary fermentation dropped down, but not below 50F...I didn't think this was cold enough to worry about cold crashing...?

Since we know the S-04 worked with the apple juice concentrate, there is definitely some yeast working. So, this makes me think it is a temperature thing...at least for the S-04 since I haven't seen any carb in the S-04/dextrose bottles. My guess is the S-04 yeast just had an easier time with the apple juice sugars and needs a bit more temp for the dextrose.

As for the Nottingham, I did see a few tiny bubbles after popping the top of the bottles, so I think there is still yeast left to work. I'll warm it all up and cross my fingers.

Tried a couple more bottles of S-04 tonight. Just the right amount of fizz and mighty tasty! I'm happy with the results so far, just gotta get some bubbles going in the other 3/4 of my bottles!

 

[jstluise]

Well since the last time I posted I moved all my bottles to my office at work where the temperature is always in the 65-70F range. It has been over two weeks so I figured I should do some taste testing.

First was the Nottingham with apple juice concentrate (AJC). I was happy to see some nice bubbles with it...finally! Just like the S-04 with AJC. So now I know there was enough yeast left in suspension in both the Nott and S-04.

Next was the Nott and S-04 with dextrose. Surprisingly, they were both still flat. A few bubbles formed on the glass after I poured but nothing compared to the other bottles. Still tasted flat. I'll check my numbers again but I was very careful with how much dextrose I put in...I don't think I could have put too little in.

Anyways, as for the taste. I am very happy with the S-04 (even the flat stuff tastes good). The Nott has a peculiar taste that I'm not too fond off...kind of bitter. Maybe the Nott would be better as a sweeter cider; the stuff I made is pretty dry, only 5g of sugar per 12oz bottle. I also read that the Nott isn't the best to use if you are going to ferment completely dry, which is what I did.

I think my next batch will be all S-04 with AJC. It was so delicious that is is already all gone!