Filtering Wort: Grain Bed or BIAB?

[Killshakes]

I am new to AG brewing (and brewing in general), and I've been debating the virtues of various brewing methods. In particular, I've been looking at alternatives to fly and batch sparging, like BIAB and other "no-sparge" methods. My last two batch have been IPA's using a BIAB method.

One thing that has been on my mind is just how well a BIAB bag filters the mash, as opposed to the traditional grain bed (+ vorlauf). I often read brewing instructions or articles saying that wort filtered through the grain bed in the traditional manner eventually runs clear, or at least near to it. My experience with BIAB is that the pre-boil wort is not particularly clear, which has got me wondering if the traditional grain bed + vorlauf does a better job of filtering.

In a nutshell, my questions are these:

(1) Does the a batch / fly sparge using the traditional grain bed +vorlauf produce clearer, more filtered wort for the boil than a BIAB bag?

(2) Does the clarity of the pre-boil wort affect the clarity or quality of the finished beer (i.e., does the answer to question #1 even really matter)?

 

[beermanpete]

I have never used the BIAB method but it seems like the vorlauf would work with the BIAB system the same as with a more traditional mash tun. Try recirculating the wort for a while to see if it clears up.

 

[cswis86]

1. Yes, I do both BIAB and traditional all grain and I have noticed that the wort is clearer.

2. No, though my BIAB batches have more protein break at the end of the boil the finished beer is still as clear as my vorlaufed batches.

 

[madscientist451]

Quick answers:
1. Don't know
2. No

It doesn't matter how clear the wort is. Everything settles out later.
I put a BIAB in a round cooler, no false bottom, just an elbow facing down. Its cheap, easy and works fine.
For bigger brews outside I have a keggle mash tun with a false bottom, but I put a BIAB bag in that as well, if a mash gets stuck, just pull up on the bag, its also easy to get the grain out of the mash tun.
The question of fly, batch or no sparge is somewhat complicated, but I'll break it down to a couple of sentences:
Fly sparge takes more time but is the most efficient use of your grain.
Batch sparge is quicker, but to get the same gravity you probably will have to add some more grain, like 5-10%
No sparge is the fastest, but the least efficient, you'll have to add 15-40%? more grain to get the same gravity as fly sparge. I put a question mark there because I haven't actually tried no sparge yet, except for some initial BIAB attempts, and am going off what I've read.
I started off BIAB, but switched to BIAB in a cooler because I didn't like pulling the bag out and making a mess, plus I had temperature swings trying to mash in my kettle. There are all kinds of ways to overcome these issues, you'l eventually find a way that works for you with your equipment and how much time you have.
Remember that making the wort is only one part of homebrewing. Managing your yeast and fermentation is equally important and so is the packaging step. Good Luck.

 

[timdillon36]

The short answer

In a nutshell, my questions are these:

(1) Does the a batch / fly sparge using the traditional grain bed +vorlauf produce clearer, more filtered wort for the boil than a BIAB bag?It can

(2) Does the clarity of the pre-boil wort affect the clarity or quality of the finished beer (i.e., does the answer to question #1 even really matter)? No and no

 

[Chrisbrewbeers]

I use brew bag in 10 gal cooler method and it works real good doing batch sparge. I tried the other methods first too.

 

[kh54s10]

I agree with the above.

1) maybe a little more clear.
2) it does not make the finished beer more clear

I am one of the few who do not like to brew BIAB. Probably mostly because I don't have the setup to keep from having a hot, sticky mess when done. And I don't have a proper BIAB bag. I have used 5 gallon paint strainer bags and they are a bitch to clean. I guess I could just toss them out when done.

 

[RM-MN]

I agree with the above.

1) maybe a little more clear.
2) it does not make the finished beer more clear

I am one of the few who do not like to brew BIAB. Probably mostly because I don't have the setup to keep from having a hot, sticky mess when done. And I don't have a proper BIAB bag. I have used 5 gallon paint strainer bags and they are a bitch to clean. I guess I could just toss them out when done.

What? Just what are you doing that makes them hard to clean?

I dump out the grains and let the bag turn inside out, then give the bag a shake (outside of course), then turn the bag right side out and shake it again, then rinse it in the sink and hang to dry.

 

[Killshakes]

Thanks for the information everyone. It's good to know! My suspicion had been that traditional grain bed + vorlauf would produce a somewhat clearer wort, and that the clarity probably didn't have much impact on the final product. It sounds like that suspicion has been confirmed.

 

[jekeane]

I have a 3 vessel herms system that recirculates (vorlaufs) for 90 minutes. My wort into the kettle is as clear as it will be in the glass.

I also do lots of stovetop 2 gallon BIAB using a WIlserbag. I squeeze the bag and get filthy looking wort many times.

Both methods make great beer and I have seen little difference in the ability of either method to medal.

I love my herms setup but would likely have done a 2 vessel no sparge setup if I did it all over again. 2 vessel primarily because I don't want to lift the grain bag on larger batches.

 

[kh54s10]

What? Just what are you doing that makes them hard to clean?

I dump out the grains and let the bag turn inside out, then give the bag a shake (outside of course), then turn the bag right side out and shake it again, then rinse it in the sink and hang to dry.

The grains get stuck in all the little pockets created by the elastic. They also stick in the mesh itself. I also use one for the hops during the boil and that is even worse. The hops stick on the inside and the hot break sticks on the outside. I actually need to wad it up and scrub one side against the other to loosen all that gunk. It is not terribly difficult but it takes about 10 minutes, gallons of water and is a PITA

I am also comparing it to my mash tun that I dump then spray out with a garden hose. That takes at most 2 minutes......

 

[Killshakes]

Quick answers:
The question of fly, batch or no sparge is somewhat complicated, but I'll break it down to a couple of sentences:
Fly sparge takes more time but is the most efficient use of your grain.
Batch sparge is quicker, but to get the same gravity you probably will have to add some more grain, like 5-10%
No sparge is the fastest, but the least efficient, you'll have to add 15-40%? more grain to get the same gravity as fly sparge. I put a question mark there because I haven't actually tried no sparge yet, except for some initial BIAB attempts, and am going off what I've read.

I think that your numbers for additional grain might be a little off. I've been looking into the efficiency differences between these methods (though I haven't had the chance to try all of them), and while many sources say that additional grain is needed to reach the target OG for a given batch size when using a BIAB / no-sparge methond, a lot of others say that little to no additional grain is needed, especially if the grain is more finely ground.

The numbers for no-sparge look particularly high. This article gives an example comparing batch sparge to no-sparge and suggests adding something like 17% more grain, not 40%.

http://byo.com/malt/item/1375-skip-the-sparge

The Brulosophy blog has a couple of articles that suggest adding little to no additional grain, as the efficiency reduction they experienced was only 3%-5%.

http://brulosophy.com/methods/processes/no-sparge-method/

http://brulosophy.com/2016/08/29/mash-methods-pt-2-batch-sparge-vs-no-sparge-exbeeriment-results/

 

[Killshakes]

Quick answers:
The question of fly, batch or no sparge is somewhat complicated, but I'll break it down to a couple of sentences:
Fly sparge takes more time but is the most efficient use of your grain.
Batch sparge is quicker, but to get the same gravity you probably will have to add some more grain, like 5-10%
No sparge is the fastest, but the least efficient, you'll have to add 15-40%? more grain to get the same gravity as fly sparge. I put a question mark there because I haven't actually tried no sparge yet, except for some initial BIAB attempts, and am going off what I've read.

I think your grain addition numbers may be a little off / high. I haven't had the chance to try all of these methods yet, but I've been doing a lot or research, it while many sources say that additional grain is need to achieve the same efficiency with BIAB / no-sparge that you would get with batch or fly sparging, many other suggest that little to no additional grain is needed.

The no-sparge numbers seem particularly high. This article, which compares batch sparging and no-sparge, suggest and addition of about 17% more grain, rather than ~40%:

http://byo.com/malt/item/1375-skip-the-sparge

The Brulosophy blog has a couple of articles that suggest that little to no additional grain is needed for no-sparge, as the reduction in efficiency was only 3%-5%:

http://brulosophy.com/methods/processes/no-sparge-method/

http://brulosophy.com/2016/08/29/mash-methods-pt-2-batch-sparge-vs-no-sparge-exbeeriment-results/

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

If there's no difference in the final product even when there's grain particulate in the boil, what's the purpose of the vorlauf? Set the grain bed? Why if it doesn't matter if grain matter makes it into the boil?

Also, not sure why anyone would do a no sparge vs batch sparge. The batch sparge takes like 10 extra minutes and you get a much better yield. To me, that's a no-brainer over no sparge.

 

[RM-MN]

The grains get stuck in all the little pockets created by the elastic. They also stick in the mesh itself. I also use one for the hops during the boil and that is even worse. The hops stick on the inside and the hot break sticks on the outside. I actually need to wad it up and scrub one side against the other to loosen all that gunk. It is not terribly difficult but it takes about 10 minutes, gallons of water and is a PITA

I am also comparing it to my mash tun that I dump then spray out with a garden hose. That takes at most 2 minutes......

The grains have already given up all their goodness. Just get the majority of them out so the bag and remaining grain particles will dry so they don't mold and it's good enough. You aren't going to strain paint with that bag, just put more grains in it for the next batch.

 

[beermanpete]

I think your grain addition numbers may be a little off / high. I haven't had the chance to try all of these methods yet, but I've been doing a lot or research, it while many sources say that additional grain is need to achieve the same efficiency with BIAB / no-sparge that you would get with batch or fly sparging, many other suggest that little to no additional grain is needed.

The no-sparge numbers seem particularly high. This article, which compares batch sparging and no-sparge, suggest and addition of about 17% more grain, rather than ~40%:

http://byo.com/malt/item/1375-skip-the-sparge

The Brulosophy blog has a couple of articles that suggest that little to no additional grain is needed for no-sparge, as the reduction in efficiency was only 3%-5%:

http://brulosophy.com/methods/processes/no-sparge-method/

http://brulosophy.com/2016/08/29/mash-methods-pt-2-batch-sparge-vs-no-sparge-exbeeriment-results/

Since most recipes do not include an efficiency number you need to calculate the mash/lauter efficiency using the volume, OG, and grain bill listed in the recipe. Use your system's mash/lauter efficiency to adjust the grain bill. You also need to account for your equipment's losses (brew house efficiency).

If you have not characterized your system you will have to take your best guess or use the recipe as written and make adjustments on the next batch. Good record keeping help with this. Make notes about the weights, volumes, temps., specific gravity (or equivalent measurement of sugar content), and so on. Use the data collected to determine where things went well and where adjustments are required.

Also, grain crush has a significant impact on mash efficiency. It is helpful to crush the grain with the same grain mill each time to control this variable.

 

[kh54s10]

The grains have already given up all their goodness. Just get the majority of them out so the bag and remaining grain particles will dry so they don't mold and it's good enough. You aren't going to strain paint with that bag, just put more grains in it for the next batch.

Even with all my struggles I never get the bag totally clean. If I ever do larger BIAB batches I will get a real bag. I still dislike BIAB. But then again I would love to get a Grainfather or Brew-Boss.