Fifty pound sack = catastrophic mash failure. Ten Pound bag is fine.

[GuitsBoy]

How quickly did the mash temperature stabilize? And did you have to cool it to target temperature?

If all three batches reacted the same it leads me to a grain problem.

Have you tried another base grain in the mean time and had your typical results? That would single out the grain as the problem.

My strike water was 163.7, and I did not need to cool. The temp was right on ~152 as soon as I was done stirring.

This past brewday used the same problem grain for all three batches. But the previous brewday from the initial post shows that only two of the three batches used the "problem grain" and those were the two with issues. The one batch that used grain from a 10 pound bag hit my usual efficiency in 20 minutes.

 

[Gavin C]

Any reason you don't want to try mashing thinner? With efficiency that low what you gotta lose by trying.

 

[kh54s10]

No top off water. The beer smith calculations for mash and sparge volumes are pretty dialed in now. I do add water to grain instead of the usual doughing in, but Ive been using the method for a while without issues, and it worked for the good batch this past brew session too. The strike water was 168 on the nose. It drops immediately on contact, so I don't think its enough to denature anything.

My strike water was 163.7, and I did not need to cool. The temp was right on ~152 as soon as I was done stirring.

This past brewday used the same problem grain for all three batches. But the previous brewday from the initial post shows that only two of the three batches used the "problem grain" and those were the two with issues. The one batch that used grain from a 10 pound bag hit my usual efficiency in 20 minutes.

I think this is where some of the discussion about strike temperature denaturing the mash got going.

Since your temperatures seem to be all right, I am back to a grain problem.

Let us know if you contact your supplier about any reports, I am glad I don't have any of that particular malt.

 

[GuitsBoy]

I think this is where some of the discussion about strike temperature denaturing the mash got going.

Since your temperatures seem to be all right, I am back to a grain problem.

Let us know if you contact your supplier about any reports, I am glad I don't have any of that particular malt.

EDIT: I wasnt mashing at a higher temp. Looking through beersmith I wasn't mashing any thicker, and my recipes were all in the 163-164 strike temp range. It must have been a typo when responding. I probably accidentally referenced sparge temp instead of strike temp and it didnt seem odd to me since I do occasionally mash at 155 to 156.

Regardless, across both brewdays, and all batches therein, the mash temp was indeed 152.

 

[GuitsBoy]

Any reason you don't want to try mashing thinner? With efficiency that low what you gotta lose by trying.

Yeah, I probably will try this next time. Right now I've been heating the strike water in 5 gallon pots, but next time Ill heat the water in the 8 gallon kettles instead and mash a little thinner. I'll probably mash 90 minutes with a half hour batch sparge as well, to be sure I'm not shorting it in any way.

 

[Gavin C]

How is batch sparging taking 30 minutes?

 

[GuitsBoy]

How is batch sparging taking 30 minutes?

I'm saying that I *will* allow it to rest for 30 minutes *next time*, on the off chance that conversion is incomplete after the mash.

I am pulling out all the stops to give this grain every possible advantage just to see what happens.

But to clear things up, no, I dont batch sparge for 30 minutes. I let the grain bed settle for 5 to 10 minutes then let 'er rip, hopefully before an tannins are extracted.

 

[sudbuddy]

The two bad batches were from a bulk sack, which I assume was drop shipped from great western directly.

I guarantee you those bags were not drop shipped from Great Western directly. They went from Great Western's warehouse (in WA) to Country Malt's warehouse (in CA) to Morebeer's warehouse (also in CA) to you (undisclosed). That is a lot of opportunity for mishandling, especially in the summer heat. Perhaps next time you should support your local homebrew shop (which gets it straight from Country Malt) and skip a couple steps in the distribution chain. Plus you'll be helping nice local brewers stay employed. You wouldn't buy liquid yeast online (hopefully) because it gets too beat up, so why buy 200 lbs of grain? Plus the shipping cost must have been crazy. Next time try your LHBS. If you're willing to wait for them to fill a pallet you will probably get a great deal and much fresher, properly handled grain.

 

[GuitsBoy]

I guarantee you those bags were not drop shipped from Great Western directly. They went from Great Western's warehouse (in WA) to Country Malt's warehouse (in CA) to Morebeer's warehouse (also in CA) to you (undisclosed). That is a lot of opportunity for mishandling, especially in the summer heat. Perhaps next time you should support your local homebrew shop (which gets it straight from Country Malt) and skip a couple steps in the distribution chain. Plus you'll be helping nice local brewers stay employed. You wouldn't buy liquid yeast online (hopefully) because it gets too beat up, so why buy 200 lbs of grain? Plus the shipping cost must have been crazy. Next time try your LHBS. If you're willing to wait for them to fill a pallet you will probably get a great deal and much fresher, properly handled grain.

It shipped to LI, NY, so its quite a bit of distance. Even after shipping, it was 10 to 20 dollars cheaper to buy from morebeer than either of my two local shops, neither of which actually stock bulk sacks, and would need to order them anyway.

Unfortunately we dont have any true brew shops ANYWHERE near by. We have a wine rack distributor with a back room with some miscellaneous homebrew items, and the other place is a hardware store with a couple short aisles of grains and a small fridge full of yeast and hops. Both are OK for some general items in a pinch, but neither place would be my go-to for bulk purchases.

 

[sudbuddy]

It shipped to LI, NY, so its quite a bit of distance. Even after shipping, it was 10 to 20 dollars cheaper to buy from morebeer than either of my two local shops, neither of which actually stock bulk sacks, and would need to order them anyway.

Unfortunately we dont have any true brew shops ANYWHERE near by. We have a wine rack distributor with a back room with some miscellaneous homebrew items, and the other place is a hardware store with a couple short aisles of grains and a small fridge full of yeast and hops. Both are OK for some general items in a pinch, but neither place would be my go-to for bulk purchases.

By LI I infer you mean Long Island. You mean to tell me there aren't any good homebrew shops on the most populated island in the country? Yikes. I know there have to be at least a few in NYC, and that's still a lot better than buying from Morebeer. Country Malt's nearest warehouse to you is in Champlain, NY, so you can get super fresh grain if you do your homework. Would you spend $10 on poop when $20 gets you gold? Re-think your priorities brother

 

[GuitsBoy]

By LI I infer you mean Long Island. You mean to tell me there aren't any good homebrew shops on the most populated island in the country? Yikes. I know there have to be at least a few in NYC, and that's still a lot better than buying from Morebeer. Country Malt's nearest warehouse to you is in Champlain, NY, so you can get super fresh grain if you do your homework. Would you spend $10 on poop when $20 gets you gold? Re-think your priorities brother

Perhaps theres some giant Homebrewing Mecca here that I've just missed all these years, but for the most part, we only have Karps and Kedco out here. Warehouse space / rent / taxes are just way too high to have a bunch of grain sitting around waiting to be sold, and its far worse in NYC. But hey, if you know of a homebrew shop that's a little bigger than a few shelves set aside at a hardware store, I'm all ears. Morebeer in PA seems to be the closest sizable outfit (stocking bulk grains) on the east coast. In fact I suspect this is where some of the local brew shops order bulk grains from anyway.

And I'm not really sure how country malt works, or if they sell directly to the public, but I'm not quick to jump at the idea of taking an 800 mile, 12 hour round trip to pick up a few sacks of grain.

Still, your distaste for my shopping preferences, vendor, or the malting company itself doesn't really explain what has happened here. I've brewed plenty of beers that came out just fine using the $10 poop you refer to, so long as it was purchased in a ten pound bag.

 

[sudbuddy]

Country Malt doesn't sell to the general public anymore, just breweries and homebrew shops. I took the liberty of finding you a good shop if you're willing to go to New Jersey: http://www.love2brew.com/contact-us-a/246.htm

These guys are great, I hung out with them a bit at NHC and they are the only place you can get East Coast Yeast that I know of.

On a personal note, after reading your responses to everyone on an advice thread that you started, it appears that you are very sensitive and do not take constructive criticism well. You posted a question on an online forum looking for help, and we took time out of our days to give you that help. You respond aggressively and defensively, rather than taking the advice/criticism/suggestions like an adult. We are nice people on this site, we aren't looking to offend you. This isn't Reddit. If you don't like what we have to say, either don't ask for help or grow a thicker skin.

 

[GuitsBoy]

On a personal note, after reading your responses to everyone on an advice thread that you started, it appears that you are very sensitive and do not take constructive criticism well. You posted a question on an online forum looking for help, and we took time out of our days to give you that help. You respond aggressively and defensively, rather than taking the advice/criticism/suggestions like an adult. We are nice people on this site, we aren't looking to offend you. This isn't Reddit. If you don't like what we have to say, either don't ask for help or grow a thicker skin.

And I would counter that my responses are phrased in kind. I must admit that I take particular issue with two types of responses which I've received in this thread:

Firstly, claims that it was a brewing error, with zero evidence or even suppositions that support an error which would result in such a huge loss of efficiency. Yes, there are optimizations left in my process, but in small increments, not on the order of a missing 50%. Still, I have done my best to incorporate the suggestions on here, despite the fact I do not feel they are make it or break it adjustments, and I feel the issue remains.

The second response I take issue with is that I've purchased inferior grain from an inferior vendor. In a way its belittling the exhaustive hours of google searches, forum browsing, research and speaking with the local brewing community. I have done my due diligence, and unfortunately the perfect combination of price, selection and proximity cannot be found in my area. I found purchasing my grains online from morebeer to be the appropriate compromise for my needs. And you called it poop.

I appreciate the fact that many people have tossed in their thoughts an opinions on a particularly vexing matter. I understand that these are real people who contribute to the community out of their own generosity. I appreciate all the comments made in this thread, including your own, because even if I don't agree with what is being said, it is food for thought. I feel that what you see as my inability to take advice/criticism/suggestions like an adult, is actually my unwillingness to back down to rude or unjustified comments. Any resistance to [un]constructive criticism was backed up with anecdotal evidence or support showing how the variable is either controlled, compensated for, or in my opinion, largely inconsequential. You're simply looking through whatever colored glasses suitably paint me as the jerk you think I am. Despite the fact that I live in the rudeness capital of the nation, its not the foot I lead with. Rather it needs to be coaxed out. If you wish to continue to coax it out, my PM box is nearly empty. Nobody needs to see us air our beer stained laundry out in here.

Still, I wholeheartedly thank you, sudbuddy, for your contributions in this thread, good bad or ugly. And a thank you to the other posters as well.

 

[sudbuddy]

For the record I wasn't calling your grain choice poop. That was poorly worded, beer-induced phrasing. I actually love Great Western 2 row and use it all the time. I think what I was trying to communicate was that you had said you ordered from morebeer to save 10 bucks, which sort of implied that there was a fresher source that cost a little more. I've never heard of a lengthy supply chain denaturing enzymes but it's certainly possible, and definitely a bummer.

Now quit worrying and go drink some homebrew!

 

[DarkStarNJ]

I had to google both those names never heard of em.

Karps seems ok? pulled this from their grain page. It'll get dropped shipped to you....


We've developed the best Grain Program anywhere! When you order full sacks of grain from Karp's, they are shipped direct to you from the East Coast's largest grain wholesaler. This way you are assured of both the freshest product and the largest selection possible. And, in case we forgot to mention it, great prices too!

 

[GuitsBoy]

I had to google both those names never heard of em.

Karps seems ok? pulled this from their grain page. It'll get dropped shipped to you....


We've developed the best Grain Program anywhere! When you order full sacks of grain from Karp's, they are shipped direct to you from the East Coast's largest grain wholesaler. This way you are assured of both the freshest product and the largest selection possible. And, in case we forgot to mention it, great prices too!

Karps is OK. Really nice people, but it's a really small homebrew operation. The $20-25 shipping makes it less palatable, making it $75 bucks per sack, compared to morebeer's $54. Kedco will order sacks for 70 IIRC, but I have to pick them up. Its tough to justify a $20 dollar premium when there really shouldn't be any difference to begin with.

I will say that the grain giving me difficulty was shipped from the california warehouse. Now that the PA warehouse is back in stock, maybe ill have better luck in the future. But for now, I may simply order a few 10 pound bags to mix in with my existing stock. The 10 pound bags are likely fresher, and maybe the enzymes from the fresher grain will help carry the team so to speak.

EDIT:
I spoke with the owner at Karps and hes willing to sell me bulk sacks if he has enough stock, otherwise he can add me to his next order. That way I can save on shipping. Thats probably the both the best way to go, and supports the LHBS. Everybody wins.

 

[SeraW]

Have you considered keeping some straight amylase on hand? That way, if your pre-boil gravity is low at the end of your mash, you can try forcing some more conversion? It would mean a longer mash, but could save you some headache.