Ffuuuuuuuuuu!!!!!

[Sedge]

You can totally use boiling water btw. Just don't add it all at once to avoid thermal shock. Pour in a couple quarts, shake it around to bring the carboy's temp up slowly, add some more etc. In the end you'll get enough sanitize-temp water in there....let it sit while stoppered and let it cool that way through your brew so you don't have to handle a giant glass boiling water grenade.


this is of course a desperation method.

 

[Cliff897]

I wouldn't classify anything containing sodium hypochlorite (bleach) as no rinse. It contributes off-flavors to beer, and when mixed with an acid, releases chlorine.

In a pinch, it is pretty damn good. Drained and dry the bottles and gear won't carry enough to detect.
At that titration it can't even denature the chromatophores in your ancient Persian hand woven rug.

It ain't Star San but then ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Hell, Even Star San's creator Chemist ( C. Talley) says that titration of bleach and vinegar is no rinse. He is where I learned it.

 

[GateTwelve]

I still have two problems with that suggestion:
The chlorine gas byproduct is one. And secondly, when mixed with an acid (vinegar), chlorine is produced, rather than than reactive O2, which is what gives bleach its sanitizing and bleaching properties. The only thing left that seems like it would do any good would be the acidic vinegar itself. So, why not just use the vinegar, and skip the chlorine?

Plus, at a rate of 2 tbsp of bleach to 5 gallons of water gives a bleach solution of 0.0015625%. The CDC recommendations for sanitizing water storage containers (let alone warm, sugary, bacteria havens) is a water/bleach solution of 0.0416666666625%, which is over 25x stronger, not even counting the amount of bleach which may be rendered useless by the acidic vinegar.

 

[Cliff897]

I still have two problems with that suggestion:
The chlorine gas byproduct is one.

I hear ya. At that titration you won't be getting any. At least, not any you can measure without a vacuum chamber and a quadrapole mass spectrometer.

And secondly, when mixed with an acid (vinegar), chlorine is produced, rather than than reactive O2, which is what gives bleach its sanitizing and bleaching properties.

Without remarking on the O2 notion, the mix you'll get will be at 80 ppm chlorine ( assuming 5-6% chlorine in the bleach) with the proper caustic adjustment from the vinegar for the correct solution with hypochloric acid (HCOI) which is the lethal agent needed in the solution I offered.

The only thing left that seems like it would do any good would be the acidic vinegar itself. So, why not just use the vinegar, and skip the chlorine?

No. The solution strength of the vinegar is not the same as 5% chlorine.

Plus, at a rate of 2 tbsp of bleach to 5 gallons of water gives a bleach solution of 0.0015625%.

It's 80 ppm

The CDC recommendations for sanitizing water storage containers (let alone warm, sugary, bacteria havens) is a water/bleach solution of 0.0416666666625%, which is over 25x stronger, not even counting the amount of bleach which may be rendered useless by the acidic vinegar.

I can't help you with the CDC's problems. Maybe they like to kill things several times over and then kill 'em again a few more, then nuke 'em, and then autoclave 'em, and then have a house fire?
Just because the CDC says something doesn't mean that there are not a dozen other ways to skin the cat.

Here, don't take my word - I ain't no chemist -
Listen to the Chem Engineer Charley Talley who invented Star San tell you all about it: http://cdn4.libsyn.com/basicbrewing...16&nva=20100128204516&t=059564616b8b08c601f55
and
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/archive/dwnldarchive03-19-06.mp3

I was somewhat surprised that in a discussion where he was fronting his product that he flat out said that bleach vinegar and water was a great and completely effective sanitizing solution and even that it was no rinse.
Talk about selling your product. But he's an engineer, not a marketing geek.

 

[mychalg9]

Taxi cab to the HBS. They might do it for free since I'm sure it's a first for them and they will have a great story to tell!

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Oxyclean/Sun Oxygen, etc..., is percarbonate based plus ???? (surfactants mostly) and is a sanitiser with a long contact time. It's also a rinse based cleaner/sanitiser which means you'll just need the hot water anyways.

 

[northernlad]

I still have two problems with that suggestion:
The chlorine gas byproduct is one. And secondly, when mixed with an acid (vinegar), chlorine is produced, rather than than reactive O2, which is what gives bleach its sanitizing and bleaching properties. The only thing left that seems like it would do any good would be the acidic vinegar itself. So, why not just use the vinegar, and skip the chlorine?

Plus, at a rate of 2 tbsp of bleach to 5 gallons of water gives a bleach solution of 0.0015625%. The CDC recommendations for sanitizing water storage containers (let alone warm, sugary, bacteria havens) is a water/bleach solution of 0.0416666666625%, which is over 25x stronger, not even counting the amount of bleach which may be rendered useless by the acidic vinegar.

When using bleach, surface sanitation is effective at 50ppm which is the minimum required by most Health Departments in a commercial kitchen application. This is 1tsp per gallon. When working with clean surfaces like a precleaned carboy and misc. tools, 50ppm is sufficient when allowed time. It is NOT no-rinse. Your numbers call for a solution of 2000ppm which is well beyond overkill for our purpose.
Furthermore, sugar and acid inhibit the growth of bacteria so the slightly acidic, sweet nature of wort is already an unhappy place for bacteria and mold and only gets less hospitable as the sugar turns to alcohol.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I am not sure I have ever seen such a compilation of poor reading, modded posts, bad advice, and stupid comments, misunderstood humor, and general Bedlam. There was even a savior forgetting to save due to shrooming...

Luckily, it looks like all ends well and the incorrect facts have been righted.

 

[Synovia]

You don't need sanitizer on brew day if you No-Chill.

Everything gets heat sanitized.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

lololol...... I am cracking up over here.

He uses carboys. Boom, crack, splash, weep.

 

[northernlad]

I am not sure I have ever seen such a compilation of poor reading, modded posts, bad advice, and stupid comments, misunderstood humor, and general Bedlam. There was even a savior forgetting to save due to shrooming...

Luckily, it looks like all ends well and the incorrect facts have been righted.

Are you sure you didn't mean to post this in the Blended Beers thread?

 

[Synovia]

lololol...... I am cracking up over here.

He uses carboys. Boom, crack, splash, weep.

Probably has a bottling bucket though.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I gave up on that after my post. All rational thoughts had already been said on the first page.

 

[Keff]

lololol...... I am cracking up over here.

Your not the only one, This thread went downhill quickly! :cross:

 

[GateTwelve]

@Cliff897 - Interesting link. Didn't know there was a homebrewing radio. Thanks for sharing. I wasn't implying the vinegar was the same as cholrine, but was meaning to say "Just use vinegar, and avoid any unwanted chlorine gas byproduct". I guess if the vinegar and bleach are added into the water (rather than together), then that would avoid chlorine byproducts due to dilution. But that's where I was saying, "why not just use vinegar". As for the CDC - I dunno. That's just what is recommended for sanitizing water containers. I would assume it's so high, since the material being sanitized isn't specified. EDIT: and listening to more of this radio mp3 you posted, I'm at least happy they sufficiently mentioned NOT mixing the vinegar and bleach together, but rather each individually to the water.

@northernlad - 100-200ppm of bleach is the generally accepted sanitizing concentration. 50ppm is the absolute bare minimum for the USDA, but that requires lengthy soaking times and that the item being sanitized has non-porous, smooth surfaces. 200ppm is the maximum to use without rinsing for food purposes (though as I said: if using bleach I would never use it as no-rinse, regardless of concentration when brewing). Maybe I'm a bit anal about sanitizing. I just use the CDC's recommended concentrations, and rinse. But you are correct about the acidity and sugar of the wort/beer. I misspoke.

 

[iamjonsharp]

Ask a neighbor for some bleach...whups I'm a day late

 

[Cliff897]

@Cliff897 - Interesting link. Didn't know there was a homebrewing radio. Thanks for sharing.

Hobby brewers gotta stick together.

meaning to say "Just use vinegar,

Will that kill things? Over what time?
Never thought to use vinegar, but it works for pickling.

they sufficiently mentioned NOT mixing the vinegar and bleach together, but rather each individually to the water.

Yah well.
When I was much younger I thought it was a hoot to get some 12% pool bleach put a cup of that in a mason jar and add to the jar a poly bag of muriatic acid. Then throw. It put the molotov to shame.

@northernlad - 100-200ppm of bleach is the generally accepted sanitizing concentration. 50ppm is the absolute bare minimum

All that's why I think Talley prefers 80 PPM with the caustic adjustment.
The combination is effective while not forcing the user to rinse with contaminated tap water.

For years - I mean decades - my sanitation regime was lots of bleach some water a soak and rinsing in boiled water.
It was a total PITA.
When I found Star San it was like a whole boat load of weight was lifted from my shoulders. And to think had I just consulted a chemist I might have saved myself a whole lot of misery

Maybe I'm a bit anal about sanitizing. I just use the CDC's recommended concentrations, and rinse.

I belong to the school of "if a little bit is good then ~ ~ ~ ~ "
And I used to use bleach like it was going out of style. I still use star San in a stronger concentration than recommended - even though there probably a window if functionality.
I know, I know, excess is an iggurnunt philosophy, but it's the dog and pony show I know.

 

[GateTwelve]

When I was much younger I thought it was a hoot to get some 12% pool bleach put a cup of that in a mason jar and add to the jar a poly bag of muriatic acid. Then throw. It put the molotov to shame.

*starts thinking about the bleach and muriatic acid sitting in the cupboard* No...must resist.

I use "One Step No Rinse" for all the stuff I don't feel like rinsing. But, yeah, 1/2 or 1 cup o' bleach for every 1-2 gallons of water is what I do for everything else (especially the stuff I was too lazy to clean last time it was used), and then just rinse. PITA it is, but easy enough, all things considered.

As for vinegar, http://www.hi-tm.com/Documents/Cutboard.html and one that suggests that vinegar outperforms bleach (doesn't specify bleach concentrations) at eliminating certain bacteria from food products http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12380754

 

[Cliff897]

*starts thinking about the bleach and muriatic acid sitting in the cupboard* No...must resist.

You don't want to be within 30 feet of the thing when they combine.
One breath of the gas and your lungs will be burnt trash. Prolly burn the retinas off the eyes off too if ya don't have 'em shut. All the grass in a substantial circle will be burnt off instantly, you can watch the gas propagate outward a lot like a blast ripple from high explosive.

Interesting way to go after an under ground wasps nest. Ya need a funnel and nerves of steel. And of course you must have first, filled out the application for a Darwin Award or ya might get passed by.

As for vinegar, http://www.hi-tm.com/Documents/Cutboard.html

I'll reply in a moment I'm still trying to pick my jaw up off the floor.
That's amazing.
I wonder why the results on SST and Plastic were so different.
Maybe ( and I'm just guessing) at the molecular level a bond (Ionic?) between the lletheen (modified agar) with which which they pretreated the surfaces was the determining element. It might have held onto the metal better thus working to protect some number of organisims from the vinegar.

What really floored me was they DILUTED the vinegar~!!!
The dilution was 1 part vinegar to 4 parts water.

and one that suggests that vinegar outperforms bleach (doesn't specify bleach concentrations) at eliminating certain bacteria from food products http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12380754

I suspect that if you pay the $37.00 for the article you'll get all those missing details such as dillution. I'd guess they had the chlorine somewhere between 50ppm and 100ppm and clearly they did not adjust the pH.

You can prolly just e-mail the author and ask. It's been my experience that researchers are often pretty easy going when it comes to answering questions. Doctor Wolf-Hall seems to take a certain joy from answering questions: http://www.madsci.org/cgi-bin/search?query=Charlene+Wolf-Hall
Scanning that page you can see that most of those questions are from lay-folk.

About the chlorine -vs- vinegar thing they seemed to uncover:
If you listened to the whole (boring) interview with Chuck Talley he talks about the FDA insisting that bleach was a good sanitizer and says that the FDA is just plain wrong. That is in the part where he talks about the caustic adjustment of pH via hypoclorous acid and bleach being the real bona fide killer that you get from adding vinegar to the bleach/water solution.




Here, check this out
http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2010/01/qa-beer-safety-at-georgetown-brewing/
You can get beasties in your canned wort yeast starter.
But then canned starter is not a ferment, has no CO2 tension, no hops (isomerized alpha acids), no beneficial yeasts to make the wort hostile to other life forms. And you can always boil the canned starter before starting the yeast culture.