Festbier Recipe critique

[Queequeg]

I'm getting ready to brew one for the first time. I have previously brewed a Marzen and Vienna, the former focusing on Munich malt with a little caramunich III/Pilsner and the latter focusing on Vienna malt with a little melanoidin.

I am following the BJCP 4b for guidelines

This is what I have so far

Mash eff 75%
IBU 25
Color 4.5 SRM
Target OG 1.054
est FG 1.010

8.5lb weyerman bo floor malted pils
2lb weyerman Vienna
1lb weyerman Munich I
0.25lb carahells

Acid malt to adjust pH ( will work this out later and adjust the pils addition)

Mash at 149F

0.75oz Perle at 60mins
0.75oz tettnang at 15 mins

Ferment with quick lager method with Wyeast 2633.

All thoughts and suggestions welcome

 

[BigEd]

I would switch the quantities of Pils and Vienna malts.

 

[LuckyBeagleBrewing]

I would switch the quantities of Pils and Vienna malts.

I agree with this but I dont know if I would do a full switch. I would decrease the pils by 2 lbs and up the Vienna by two. I would also do a decoction mash out at least. I did that on a Helles and I was very pleased with the results. Weyermann is also a very good choice.

Looks pretty good.

 

[specharka]

I’ve never been to Munich so I can’t really conjecture on what a true Festbier tastes like. The continental varieties that I’ve had stateside (notably Hofbrauhaus Festbier) are extremely pale, under 4 SRM and taste more like a Helles Exportbier than a Märzen. I don’t think the grist needs to be any more complex than Pilsen malt and a little acidulated to maintain the mash pH in range, but YMMV.

The only real recommendation I have is to employ a step or decoction mash, such as a Hochkurz schedule (144-156-168). At the very least, a 15-20 min rest in the upper alpha amylase range (158-162) will provide a dramatic difference in head retention. It’s what I do for all my German styles and really improves their appearance and mouthfeel.

 

[Queequeg]

Thanks for the input guys.

Specharka I have also never drunk this style in Germany only bottled imports in the UK.

I disagree that pilsner is enough for this beer, I certainly get more of a toasted / bready element from the beers I have tried.

But I definitely agree it's should not be marzen like. The marzen that I made was 60% Munich I, 27% pilsner and 3%caramunich III. It was amber and rich but I certainly have drunk maltier Marzens. My Vienna was 96% Vienna malt and 4% melanoidin malt. It was much lighty with a pleasant grainy and toasty quality.

I want something that sits between a Vienna and a Helles. Since most helles recipes are pilsner with a small amount of carahell I think Munich and Vienna in modest amounts are what needed to differentiate this beer from a helles.

I was going to avoid a decoction if I could, but I may reconsider.

What are your thoughts on krausening? This is something that I have read can make the difference in getting a crisp finish.

 

[specharka]

Thanks for the input guys.

Specharka I have also never drunk this style in Germany only bottled imports in the UK.

I disagree that pilsner is enough for this beer, I certainly get more of a toasted / bready element from the beers I have tried.

But I definitely agree it's should not be marzen like. The marzen that I made was 60% Munich I, 27% pilsner and 3%caramunich III. It was amber and rich but I certainly have drunk maltier Marzens. My Vienna was 96% Vienna malt and 4% melanoidin malt. It was much lighty with a pleasant grainy and toasty quality.

I want something that sits between a Vienna and a Helles. Since most helles recipes are pilsner with a small amount of carahell I think Munich and Vienna in modest amounts are what needed to differentiate this beer from a helles.

I was going to avoid a decoction if I could, but I may reconsider.

What are your thoughts on krausening? This is something that I have read can make the difference in getting a crisp finish.

I think you could skip the decoction and make a great Festbier. I’ve just noticed that a single infusion doesn’t work as well to achieve that massive, lingering head typical of German styles. I no longer have the ability (or desire) to perform decoctions, so I can understand your reticence. Even a short dextrinization rest in the 158-162 range will work wonders for you, I promise.

I am still experimenting with krausening, so I don’t understand the effects completely. I recently krausened a Roggenbier and I’m looking to do it on a Kölsch soon. But from what I understand, it makes a dramatic difference in shelf stability and finished character — and reduces dissolved oxygen to nearly undetectable levels. Festbier is a perfect venue for a tryout.

 

[Omahawk]

If you’re going for the lighter end of the style, I think the recipe looks pretty good. I have been tweaking my festbier recipe for 3-4 years now. This year I settled on 2/3 pils, 1/6 Vienna, 1/6 Munich (10L). Your hops and yeast will be great (I did Oktoberfest yeast on my 2017 festbier - it was perfect).

I’ll have to try the 160 degree rest specharka suggested on my next German Lager.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I can confirm through firsthand experience that the festbier (weizenbier) in Munich for Oktoberfest are essentially pumped up helles. I didn't find one place touting the malty, red/brown versions we see stateside. That being said, I don't think a decoction is a necessity to do one; I'm partial to a bit of melanoidin malt to achieve the same effect without the trouble.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I went with this one as my latest... upped the melanoidin a bit for good measure, but pretty damn close to what I had in Munich.

 

[Queequeg]

Thanks again for the help folks, I have added a 15 mins dextrinization step to the mash at 71°C and omitted a mash out.

I have added the remaining Vienna I have taking up to a 1kg.

I have pale ale unlined up first, but I will report back once this is done with the result. Probably in about 4-6 weeks I recon.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I brew a lot of German styles and spend a good bit of time in Germany sampling beers (my fiancee is from northern Bavaria).
I agree with many of the other posters and disagree with a few.
Skip the decoction.
Most festbiers these days are on the pale-to-golden side and very NOT Marzen-like, hence the BJCP differentiation of pale vs. amber festbiers. In all reality you can get both, but pale beers rule the day in most places except maybe in Franconia.

Pils alone is not enough for this beer, but reversing the pils and Vienna is not the answer either.

You are very close to the festbier I make, but you should probably add just A LITTLE more of either Vienna or Munich.
Bear in mind that even many German pilsners have 5+% Munich malt, and many Helles (mine included) have up to 10% Vienna.

All that said, to tweak your recipe and with your goal in mind, I suggest reducing Pilsner by 2 lb and add those 2 lb to the Vienna. So,
6.5 lb Pilsner
4 lb Vienna
1 lb Munich I
4 oz (you could go up to 8 oz) CaraHell

That's basically my recipe that is a HUGE hit at my Oktoberfest party every year.

 

[Queequeg]

Thanks Cavpilot2000. I have looked through my grain bin and I only have 3lb of vienna in stock. I don't fancy putting any online order in. But I do have 2lb of munich, so I could do 3lb vienna 2lb munich 6.5 pils. Or it that too much Munich?

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Thanks Cavpilot2000. I have looked through my grain bin and I only have 3lb of vienna in stock. I don't fancy putting any online order in. But I do have 2lb of munich, so I could do 3lb vienna 2lb munich 6.5 pils. Or it that too much Munich?

NOt too much at all. Here is my recipe, which is a slight variation of a "Wurzburger Oktoberfest" recipe I got years ago from a clone brews book:
6 lb Pils
4 lb Vienna
2 lb Munich I
4 oz Caramunich II
---
1 oz Spalt @ 3.8% - 60 Min
1.5 oz Hallertau @ 2.6% - 60 Min

So, if you are at 3 lb Vienna and 2 lb Munich, it will be awesome. Not dark at all - golden colored and flavorful!

 

[Cavpilot2000]

PLease let us know what you finally went with and how it turns out!

 

[Queequeg]

Will do, but I have two ales to make first. Then I will get cracking with the lager.

 

[Queequeg]

So in the end I went with

7.25lb Bo pils
3lb vienna
1.5 munich I
6oz of carahell
2/3oz perle at 60mins
2/3 oz tettnang at 15mins

I went with this because I read that narziss' guide for a festbier is 60% pils min. I am happy if it comes out lighter than expected.

Brew day went well, pH was slightly off, and all my hydrometers read different, but other than that textbook and relaxing.

 

[Queequeg]

Here are some photos for your time.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Sounds perfect. Very similar to mine.
Interesting info on Narziss.

 

[Queequeg]

This beer is ready to drink now. Beautiful golden lager with a nice malt intensity. Somewhere between a helles and marzen, maybe a bit more malty than a Vienna but not much in it. Could easily add another lb of either Munich or Vienna.

Overall pretty pleased with it.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

This beer is ready to drink now. Beautiful golden lager with a nice malt intensity. Somewhere between a helles and marzen, maybe a bit more malty than a Vienna but not much in it. Could easily add another lb of either Munich or Vienna.

Overall pretty pleased with it.

Glad it worked out for you.
If you get a chance to make it again, try my recipe (6 pils, 4 vienna, 2 Munich, CMII).
It will probably hit that sweet spot you are looking for when you say yours is good but could probably use just a little more.

 

[Queequeg]

Yes I think I will try that, I always try to have lager on tap and they go quick, however next lager with probably but a golden Keller with some smoked malt.