Marzen - recipe for constructive criticism

[Protos]

Yep, the best style for learning the impact of your first decoction is something light in colour and strength, like a Pilsener or a Helles. There's just too much things already going in Maerzen to distinguish the effects of decoction from the effects of the choise of malts or the process.
In light beers, there's less to distract you from the signature features that decoction brings about, which are very sligh and peculiar tannic tanginess, fuller body, a touch of Melanoidin, and the proverbial "That German Twang".

 

[kaziel]

Yep, the best style for learning the impact of your first decoction is something light in colour and strength, like a Pilsener or a Helles. There's just too much things already going in Maerzen to distinguish the effects of decoction from the effects of the choise of malts or the process.
In light beers, there's less to distract you from the signature features that decoction brings about, which are very sligh and peculiar tannic tanginess, fuller body, a touch of Melanoidin, and the proverbial "That German Twang".

Thank you, I wanted to ask and also did a research on the web and found exactly those two styles. Next batch I will do pilsner 10-15l batch and try decoction in Hoch Kurz mode(spelling). Another problem is that I'm not a big "sensoric" and don't know what to expect from decoction taste/smell.

 

[Protos]

It seems I'm not too much of a sensoric too (at least when I read others' beer tasting notes, I don't taste or smell from my beers even half of what they are reporting for theirs) still I'm sure I'm able to distinguish the decoction flavour and body impact, and I think it improves my Lagers immensely. Actually, from many variuos styles I brew Lagers come out the best.
Just try it yourself!

 

[kaziel]

It seems I'm not too much of a sensoric too (at least when I read others' beer tasting notes, I don't taste or smell from my beers even half of what they are reporting for theirs)

Actually good to hear - I was thinking that's just me
I want to try as usual two beers in one sitting - one same repecie with and 2nd one without decoction. Same grain bill and yeast.
Got fair amount of S-23 in fridge so maybe I will use those for simple Pils Lager.
Any quick idea how to make one ~20 liters batch and split that in two - one part for decoction? Or should I make 2 separate mashes? Doing two separate batches isn't a problem but I'm afraid that to mane things will varying in that way.

 

[Protos]

That's great you have some S-23, it's a great yeast. Just be wise about choosing your style: S-23 is a pretty estery yeast as far as Lager yeasts go (no comparison to the Ale yeast ester levels though), so a German or Scandinavian Lager brewed with S-23 most likely will come out as a faulty one (hence the bad rap S-23 gets in the interwebs). S-23 is ideal not for German but for Austrian, Czech and Polish Lagers which are traditionally a bit more estery than German. Brew a Wiener, a Budweiser or a Zywiec with it (I'm not touching the subject of Porter Baltycki or Boehmisches Dunkles, as we're talking about light beers now). With those styles, you'll be spot on.

If you are set on making a split batch - a decocted one and an infused one - I'd suggest mashing them in separately and simultaneously. I've done that, it's not too hard to do. Well, you could mash them in both together at 38C or 55C, but then you'll have to split them equally for the decoction anyway, which will bring an added hassle. What I did, was mashing my grains in simultaneously in two mashtuns and keeping the infusion mash steps' lengths equal to the time it took the decoction part to be heated and boiled. As a result, I got some unusually long step rests for my infusion mash part (like 1 hour at 55C, 1.30 hour at 62C etc.) but this aspect is known and discussed in German brewing literature, the common thinking is that it's OK.
I would say I tasted a tangible difference between my split batches, that's why I'm a strong believer in the virtues of the good old decoction. You may find people that deny the difference, some of them well-experienced brewers, but I believe most of them probably have never tried a split batch.

 

[kaziel]

Next great tips, thank you.
So I can also go with
Mangrove Jack's Bavarian Lager M76 or Fermentis W34/70 - got some DME so I will make a starter and split for two batches.

 

[Protos]

Great yeasts too.
M76 for everything Bawarian - Helles, Dunkel, the fuller and sweeter Bavarian Pilsner, Festbier, Oktoberfest and all kinds of Bocks - and W34 (which is essentially closer to the Danish Carlsberg yeast rather than to any German yeast) goes for Northern German styles like the hoppy Jever and Dortmunder, and also for Dutch, Belgian, Scandinavian, English and American Lagers (though there's a rising trend to brew classic American Lagers with S-23).

 

[TimLa]

Sales people say what sells, not what's necessarily true.

Please do not forget that I said traditionally. I have no idea what Kunze refers to, but traditionally, there was no crystal malt in Germany. And that was the case, because it was not needed to brew great beer.

I was USAF stationed in Germany (Wurzburg) for three years in the late 80's, where I was exposed to (and drank a lot of) real beer. Back stateside, got very into homebrew, for obvious reasons.. The only beer recipes I've seen or made since then that used crystal malt were Arrogant Bastard clones and a few stouts, and they used very little of it. Having consumed a large amount of Marzen at Oktoberfest, I'm pretty sure there is no crystal in there.

BTW, my dad wrote and sold radio and tv advertising; the word 'truth' is not in their (business) vocabulary.

 

[kaziel]

Hello and Happy New Year!!!
I did this batch - but not as intended. I've didn't manage to do split batch (due to several reasons). All thing landed in one fermenter with Polish liquidae Lager Yeast (1.2L starter). Two step mashing 62C ish and 72C (and mashout).
3xPilsner, Vienna, Munich - 1.8kg
0.1kg Carafa II
I've run out of German hops and have to add 10g of Nugget (to 20g of Perle).
Color seems to be dark (to dark?).
Due to very hot January (16C in where I am) it's hard to keep it ~10C (which was my target). I'm still below 15C which is also in range (8-15) for this particular yeast.
Need to calibrate iSpindle with this fance polynomial thing - SG was 13BLG (hydrometer). As usual I took FFT sample.
Since right now this is fermenting close to 15C - should I do Diacetyl rest ~17/18C?
Anyway this was a fun to brew and I'm glad I did it. Next I will make with small batch (10L) of Vienna Lager with same yeast or S23 and I will try decoction.

 

[Jocky]

I’d drop the carafa II next time as all it’ll really be adding is colour - if you’re missing some colour/malt character I’d just bump up the Munich.

I’d always recommend a diacetyl test towards the end of fermentation when you’re 3/4 of the way done, just let it free rise rather than heating it.

 

[kaziel]

Hi, never heard about diacetyl test - I will google it up!!! I was not planning heating it up - rather moving to room from unheated garage (where it's fermenting right now).

 

[Jocky]

Hi, never heard about diacetyl test - I will google it up!!! I was not planning heating it up - rather moving to room from unheated garage (where it's fermenting right now).

Hah, that was autocorrect - I meant to say diacetyl rest towards the end of fermentation. But you can do a test once done too!