Ferulic acid rest with infusion mash

[beekgeek]

Got a brew day lined up tomorrow and, per usual, I've decided to add complexity to what could otherwise be a straightforward, relaxing time. But what's the fun in that? (Over)thinking what to do for the mash schedule and want to test out an approach.

My plan is to use one wort (52% malt. wheat, 42% pilsner, 6% munich) to brew two batches: a Hefeweizen (WY3068 @ 62F) and a Saison (WY3711 @ 75-85F). Going to add Brett L. to the Saison after primary ferment.

I want to emphasize clove profile if I can in the Hefe ... and now reading that I could also help drive some 4VG to 4EG activity (funky Brett profile) through a ferulic acid rest at the beginning of the mash.

Lots of debate about the overall benefits of a decoction mash, which I was associating with the ferulic acid rest. But now I'm thinking, why not just do a lower temp initial infusion (1.0 qt/lb water/grain ratio) @ 113F for 10 minutes, then a second water infusion (up to 2.1 qt/lb) @154F for ~45 minutes before a final sparge? This avoids a protein rest, the whole decoction effort, and lets me use my low-tech cooler tun without any other messing around.

Assuming you buy into the benefits of the ferulic rest, any thoughts on the above? Am I missing anything here?

Cheers

 

[beekgeek]

Well we may never know how effective a ferulic acid rest combined with an infusion mash is ... at least if those results depend on my data. Unfortunately I overshot the 113F initial temp target and ended up closer to 120F before moving on to sacch. rest. If anyone else has done this or decides to try this in the future, I'd be curious to hear the results.

 

[Charles84]

From what I have heard the ferulic acid rest is typically done at 108-110 Fahrenheit. where-as the protein rest occurs at 113-130f.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/beersmith-home-beer-brewing/id824963861?mt=2&i=358087864

John Palmer does a good job explaining here^

 

[beekgeek]

Thanks for the link Charles84 -- that's a good listen for German wheat brewing in general. And yes, both from John Palmer's description and going back to some of the other info sources I'd been looking at, looks like even my 113F target was probably at the high end.

For others who happen to come across this post in search of ferulic acid rest info, here's some of the sources I was using:

- Stan Hieronymus, Brewing with Wheat (104-109 / 113F)
- Jamil Zainasheff BYO hefeweizen style profile (110F)
- Harold Gulbransen NHC 2011 presentation (111-113F)
- Brulosophy step mash experiment (109-113F)
- HomebrewTalk thread: How much effect does a ferulic acid rest have? (pjj2ba has some links to some interesting articles in the 4th post).

I think the idea of fine tuning certain compounds and flavours is pretty interesting. But maybe I'll just add some clove near the end of the fermentation

 

[dmtaylor]

Well we may never know how effective a ferulic acid rest combined with an infusion mash is ... at least if those results depend on my data. Unfortunately I overshot the 113F initial temp target and ended up closer to 120F before moving on to sacch. rest. If anyone else has done this or decides to try this in the future, I'd be curious to hear the results.

That's a protein rest. Expect thin body, poor head retention, and crystal clarity, if you held it at 120 F for much longer than 5 minutes.

 

[mabrungard]

I've found that a ferrulic rest is an important component for Weizen brewing and the enhancement of clove phenolics. I've employed your proposed technique in the past with a thick mash at the ferrulic temp with an appropriate boiling water infusion to bring it into the alpha range. It works well. The jump from the ferrulic rest to the alpha rest temps avoids the concern with reducing body via a protein rest. The other consideration is that the high wheat malt content of a typical weizen grist won't have any lack of body anyhow. So protein rest concerns are minor in that brew.

 

[Bassman2003]

I am a fellow over-thinker and have been messing around with this for many years. For my setup, I think a rest at 105f made the most impact. But 105f to 145f or 152f is a pretty large jump if you want to skip the protein rest. I am a Dan Gordon fan and he swears by the full list of temperature steps including a 125f protein rest. And he uses modern Weyermann maltz.

We have so much info out there now it is tough to know who to follow. It is like turning on CNBC and trying to asses the future of the stock market. When I read the Brulosopher site I think nothing matters!

 

[dmtaylor]

the high wheat malt content of a typical weizen grist won't have any lack of body anyhow. So protein rest concerns are minor in that brew.

Many years ago, I conducted a protein rest on a witbier, which had plenty of wheat. That's where I get my experience of a thin, lifeless, watery beer due to a protein rest.

I am a Dan Gordon fan and he swears by the full list of temperature steps including a 125f protein rest. And he uses modern Weyermann maltz.

I too am a Dan Gordon fan, so I can't help but think, maybe he's right!?!?

We have so much info out there now it is tough to know who to follow. It is like turning on CNBC and trying to asses the future of the stock market. When I read the Brulosopher site I think nothing matters!

Ain't it the truth!!!

 

[beekgeek]

Yes, I also learned a lesson on protein rests with my first wit a few years ago -- took the entire grain bill through a pretty leisurely stroll in the 122F neighbourhood and ended up with a refreshing beer with little body and poor head retention. I'm hoping that this weekend's second infusion up to 152 was quick enough to avoid that ... but we'll just have to wait and see. Hoping for the best!

 

[VladOfTrub]

Refer to Weyermann's recipes and you will notice that a protein rest is included in many of their beer recipes. Dan Gordon probably follows Weyermann's recommendations if he is using their malt. I have been using Weyermann's malt for many years and their floor malt is exceptional malt. However, it is a waste of good malt if it is going to be used with the single infusion method.
The issue of insipid beer being produced when a protein rest is employed is due to the entire mash being rested in the proteolytic temperature range for an over extended time period along with using poor quality malt being high modified and high in protein, which many home brewers purchase. When the albuminous protein drops out it causes the beer to seem to be thinner, because the beer lacks body. Protein plays a very small part in forming body. Amylo-pectin is responsible for body and due to the temperatures used during the single infusion method the temperature which releases the starch is not achieved. During dextrinization, A and B limit dextrin forms and limit dextrin is responsible for body. Decoctions are boiled to reduce protein gum and to release amylo-pectin. When the decoction is returned into the low temperature mash, the decoction jells. Enzymes liquefy the released starch and limit dextrin forms. Dextrinization occurs at 149F. Limit dextrin is tasteless, non-fermenting sugar and it is not to be confused with sweet tasting, non-fermenting sugar formed from amylose. When mash out is used with the single method, the temperature is high enough to release amylo-pectin, the enzymes are denatured during mash out and the starch is transferred down stream, reducing the stability of the final product. But, not to worry, home made beer is tapped before the affect that the starch has on the product becomes noticeable. When the single method is used, the starch that is left in the lautertun is the starch that creates body. It is probably a better idea to produce beer from the starch instead of making bird feed or dog biscuits from it.

 

[seabass07]

I've also done this method with good results. Held it around 110f for about ,20 minutes then an infusion to sacc rest temp. Definitely need the list than protein test temp for it to work.

 

[dmtaylor]

One word: Kolbach.