Fermentation General Process Review

[kstiglich]

Hi folks,
I would like to review/confirm my fermentation processes with you.
Please consider that I keg everything and force carbonation, I never prime bottles.

Fermentation on ALE without Dry hopping
1. PRIMARY FERMENTATION: 10 days in primary fermentation -> It would be done in the right temperature for the ALE strain yeast (Typically between 60 and 70º)
2. Transfer to a Keg (Oxygen free with CO2 in head space but not carbonated)
3. MATURATING: Wort must be conditioning at warm temperature for 1 to 3 weeks @ 68º~70º to ensure that yeast clean everything in the wort.
4. COLD CRASH: Cold beer to 32º~34º
5. CLARIFY: Use gelatin to clarify your beer for 48 hours at least.
6. FORCE CARBONATION: Start force carbonation @12.5 or required PSI.

Notes: I prefer transferring to a Keg previous to maturate the beer because my carboys get very dirty with yeast/hops if I let them for long. they are plastic and not very appropriate for it. I know it increase infection risk, so I clean everything and sanitize it very well. The same apply for the next ALE with Dry hopping.


Fermentation on ALE with Dry hopping
1. PRIMARY FERMENTATION: 10 days in primary fermentation -> It would be done in the right temperature for the ALE strain yeast (Typically between 60 and 70º)
2. DRY HOPPING: 7 days in carboy at the same temperature used during primary fermentation.
3. Transfer to a Keg (Oxygen free with CO2 in head space but not carbonated)
4. MATURATING: Wort must be conditioning at warm temperature for 1 to 3 weeks @ 68º~70º to ensure that yeast clean everything in the wort.
5. COLD CRASH: Cold beer to 32º~34º
6. CLARIFY: Use gelatin to clarify your beer for 48 hours at least.
7. FORCE CARBONATION: Start force carbonation @12.5 or required PSI.

Fermentation on LAGER
1. PRIMARY FERMENTATION: 14 days in primary fermentation -> It would be done in the right temperature for the Lager strain yeast (Typically between 48 and 60º)
2. DIACETYL REST: Warm carboy for 2 or 3 days up to 68º~70º to let yeast eat all the diactel at the wort/beer.
3. Transfer to a Keg (Oxygen free with CO2 in head space but not carbonated)
4. FORCE CARBONATION: Cold wort to 32º~40º and start force carbonation.
5. MATURATING: Wort must be conditioning at colder temperature for 4 to 6 weeks @ 32º~40º to ensure that yeast clean everything in the wort/beer, and clarify.


First question to my whole processes; Once I heard that maturation requires beer to be carbonated, but I have found that maturation depends on yeast healthy to clean all sub products, thus must be done in a yeast comfort temperature to let it work, and after maturation has finished, you can force carbonation and start drinking your beer as soon as it finish carbonating...or does your beer need an additional carbonated maturation??

Any help to correct/improve my general fermentation processes would be appreciated.

 

[Conan]

The only change to your ales would be to let them age in the primary for two to three weeks, but your reasons for your method seem sound. You could dry hop in a muslin bag in the corny instead of in the primary.
I don't believe your beer needs to be carbonated you age, just free of oxygen which you do in the keg.
If you cold crash at 32 do you need clarifiers? If you serve at 40 the beer should stay clear without a chill haze. Kyle

 

[WhamFish]

It looks pretty good. Most ale yeast should finish the cleanup at the end of fermentation. If you have fermentation temp control I follow a schedule like 66 for 24 hours, 68 for 4 days then 70 for a few days. At that point you should have clean beer if you had a good fermentation, although it may need time to clarify.

So if your looking for the yeast to still do more work at 68-70 as you have in step 4 I would leave it on the yeast 3-4 more days. If your just looking to condition the beer you can go ahead and chill the keg and condition the beer cold since this has nothing to do with yeast activity and has more to do with settling out polyphenols and yeast.

 

[Bobby_M]

My preferred method to hit all the points you listed in the first set is to let it sit in primary for 2-3 weeks, cold crash, transfer to keg and carbonate. I would prefer to have the cold crashing be the clarification method before it gets into the keg. I know some folks have success with using gelatin in the keg, but the one time I tried it made a mess and I clogged up the poppit a few times before it cleared out.

 

[passedpawn]

It's wort until you add yeast. Then it's beer. I see there's some ambiguity in your text.

Ferment with and without dry hopping are exactly the same except for the dryhop addition. Combine into one?

You don't specify when to add the dry hops. Typically this is done only after active fermentation is finished so that the CO2 doesn't scrub the hop aromatics from the beer.

A thought on your lagering procedure: lagering primarily accomplishes two things: reduction of diacetyl and clearing the beer. Lagering at warm temps (i.e., 70F) reduces the diacetyl much more quickly than when stored at 32F. However, the beer will clear more quickly at the cold temperatures. If you can filter the beer, a better path to lagering is to mature at 70F for 2 or 3 weeks, then filter. This is what I do with pilsners and octoberfest. Much faster, I think, and I believe it's what the big breweries do, even the ones in Germany.

 

[Bassman2003]

I agree with Bobby M, with enough yeast you can accomplish your goals without needing a secondary. Primary for 2-3 weeks, cold crash the primary then transfer to your keg and carbonate. Easier and achieves the same outcome for ales.

For lagers just extend the primary to 3-4 weeks with a possible rise into the 60's for a D-rest.

Easier always wins over time for me.

 

[kstiglich]

Thanks for your responses. Based on them, I am changing my processes.
Just for your knowledge, I like dry beers, even in ALEs, for that reason I prefer to ferment on their lowest yeast temperatures.
And for any purposes, I like ALE with US-05 and Lager with W34/70.


Fermentation on ALE
1. PRIMARY FERMENTATION: 2 or 3 weeks in primary fermentation
--------- 2 days @ 60°
--------- 4 days @ 62°
--------- 1 week @ 68°
--------- 1 week @ 70° (This will maturate the beer and clean up everything)
* If Dry hopping, it would be added 7 days before end of primary fermentation, to let it dry hop for only 7 days.

2. COLD CRASH: Cold to 32º~34º and keep it there for 3 to 7 days
3. TRANSFER TO KEG
5. CLARIFY: Depending on Clarity, I use gelatin with no problems.
6. FORCE CARBONATION: Start force carbonation @12.5 or required PSI and start drinking as soon as carbonation finishes...



Fermentation on LAGER
1. PRIMARY FERMENTATION: 3 or 4 weeks in primary fermentation
--------- 3 or 4 weeks @ 54°F

2. DIACETYL REST: Warm carboy up to 68º and keep it at that temperature for 2 or 3 days to let yeast eat all the diacetyl.
3. MATURATING: Beer will be cold from 68° to 32° through a 17 day with a reduction of 2 degree per day and keep it @ 32° for 1 weeks.
4. TRANSFER TO KEG
5. FORCE CARBONATION: Start force carbonation @12.5 PSI or required PSI and start drinking as soon as carbonation finishes...

If Maturation do not clear the beer, I will have to keep the beer @ 32° for some time to clarify it. i do not filter, but using gelatin, I got great results...

Any comments on this revisión...we are on Rev.B!

 

[shemp]

subscribe

 

[Bassman2003]

My opinion is that both are looking better. The jump from 68 to 70 in the ale is probably not needed. You could just leave it at 68.

For the Lager, you do not need to slowly lower the temps to get down to lager temps. The German brewers lower the temp slowly because they are protecting the yeast on the way down. Since you are force carbonating it does not matter how quickly you lower the temps. So you can crash cool if you want to save days or have more at low temps.

I like to ferment at 48 for lagers. 54 is a little high but not an issue.

The D-rest needs to take place when there is some yeast activity or not much will happen with it.

I would not go over 4 weeks on the primary yeast. For me, fermenting for 3-4 weeks, cold crashing by the end and transferring to the keg works best. I then carb for two weeks and the keg time is the lagering step. I do not get to lager at 32, but I choose to not do a secondary guided by the beer still tasting great.

Hope any of this helps.

 

[kstiglich]

My opinion is that both are looking better. The jump from 68 to 70 in the ale is probably not needed. You could just leave it at 68.

For the Lager, you do not need to slowly lower the temps to get down to lager temps. The German brewers lower the temp slowly because they are protecting the yeast on the way down. Since you are force carbonating it does not matter how quickly you lower the temps. So you can crash cool if you want to save days or have more at low temps.

I like to ferment at 48 for lagers. 54 is a little high but not an issue.

The D-rest needs to take place when there is some yeast activity or not much will happen with it.

I would not go over 4 weeks on the primary yeast. For me, fermenting for 3-4 weeks, cold crashing by the end and transferring to the keg works best. I then carb for two weeks and the keg time is the lagering step. I do not get to lager at 32, but I choose to not do a secondary guided by the beer still tasting great.

Hope any of this helps.

The main reason to move temp from 68 to 70 is because there is no risk for off flavors, because most fermentation already finished, and warmer temp will accelerate yeast activity to process by-products....

Regarding Lager and slow reduction of temperature, actually I was following some recommendations on some recipes....but no reason to do it. I thought that maybe it was a method to give yeast more time to process by-products, while it was decreasing the temp...but if everybody else believe that there is no reason to do it, I will change directly to chilling temps.

Regarding ALEs, have you fermented at 48º with Saflager W34/70 with good results?? I live in southamerica, thus usually buy dry yeast, and saflager has the best options I could find.
Anyway, I will write an additional post because I want to go in detail on each of the steps for this process...

 

[kstiglich]

I would like to start reviewing each of the processes more in detail, and I will start with LAGER Fermentation;

1. PRIMARY FERMENTATION: Initially I wrote 3 or 4 weeks in primary fermentation @ 54ºF.
Considering that it is only the fermentation, it should only take 1.5 or 2 weeks, instead of 3 or 4 right? In that case, we know that it depends on yeast healthy, original gravity and the lager temperature for fermentation, considering that lower temperature will involve more time to complete the fermentation.

So as a Fermentation Rule: We must control fermentation by visual inspection, to confirm that airlock/blow off stops bubbling, and maybe any change in color, so if we have some indications that fermentation would be finishing, we should start performing some gravity readings, and if we obtain two consecutives readings with the same gravity and that gravity read is the expected one for the final gravity, then we must say that we finish that stage, right? It would usually happened between the 10 and 14 day after pitching....

2. DIACETYL REST: If we have the tools and ability to confirm that our fermentation finished, then we could move to start the diacetyl rest because the yeast just finished working, and it should be the best momento to do it. It would take between 2 or 3 days.

2. MATURATION: We need some time to mature the beer and let the yeast consume by-products…. I am not sure if it is better to perform this maturation at diacetyl temperature or if we must cold the beer to fermentation temperature and let it mature for 1 or 2 weeks prior to keg/lager the beer??


Your opinions on regards this part of lager fermentation would be appreciated.

 

[Bassman2003]

1st, from your post before - 34/70 is a lager yeast strain, so you would not be producing an ale if you used this yeast. (probably a typo). Yes, I have used 34/70 at 48 degrees and it makes a great German style lager. Just make sure you have a lot of yeast and oxygen present for the fermentation.

Primary Lager Fermentation. This is an area where pro brewers and homebrewers are different. Commercial brewers often do not spend as much time in the primary as us homebrewers. They have various reasons why, but in general they time in "primary" is less. At the homebrew level, many think (including myself) that it is safer to just have a longer primary than to transfer into another vessel and risk other things entering into the equation. So in the post above, you can combine all three to add up to 4 weeks in your primary vessel, then onto your keg.

In traditional lager brewing, the most important step is "lagering" the beer at 32F for six weeks. This step is beyond the yeast activity or "cleaning up" as homebrewers like to say. So it can be done in your keg if you want because we force carb the beer. The yeast's influence is over at this point.

Having said that, I have found in my attempts at brewing German lagers that 3-4 weeks in the primary then straight to the keg (with the keg being at serving temps in my fridge) has yielded great tasting lagers. So there is some wiggle room.

About the D-rest. I am a little unclear on the best time to do the rest, but you do not want to wait until all yeast activity is over because the yeast will then not participate in the rest. They will be spent. It is my understanding that most flavor is made in the early days of fermentation and you can ramp up temps without an impact fairly early in the process. Kai, the Brew Kaiser has some great fermentation schedules on his site. These are different temperature ramps you can follow for lager beers. One is like 5 days at 48-50 then ramp up to the 60s for the rest of the primary.

Once again, there seems to be a fair amount of leeway in brewing practice.

 

[kstiglich]

Thanks for your response Bassman.
Sorry I mean Lager for W34/70, it was my mistake.... It is interesting hearing your experience lagering at the low range for that strain....I was following the optimal temperature recommended by indications in the package at 54º, but I will follow your recommendation and try my next batch this weekend on 48º...does it results on a dry beer?

Regarding Lager fermentation, so do you recommend to do 3 or 4 weeks in the primary vessel, and considering that I have temperature control, do you think that performing the following will work;
14 days on lager temp (48º~54º)
3 days on diacetyl rest (59º~61º)
11 days on lager temp again (48º~54º)
=> Then direct to Keg

I will review kaiser schedules to review it...
So the main question now would be if the last 11 days would be at the same D-rest temp or go back again to the 48º~54º....

 

[Bassman2003]

Fermenting lower creates a "cleaner" beer. If you want a "dry" beer you want very full attenuation. To get this with a lager you need a lot of yeast, a mash schedule that supports less residual sugar (lower mash temps) and maybe a little higher fermentation temp to give the yeasts a better chance. Maybe ferment at 50F. Dry is also an attribute of the yeast itself. So you might want to try different yeast strains to find one that finishes dry. 34/70 will have a bit of a sweet character, just like a lot of German beers.

When I think of a dry beer, I think of Duvel (even though it is an ale). This beer is made with a portion of sugar and the yeast strain finishes dry. If you like dry, then you might want to try using WL 570 in a future beer.

Finishing at a higher temp after the D-rest will help your lager with attenuation a bit.

 

[kstiglich]

You are right again Bassman. I was referring to "Cleaner" beer. Actually, I like dry beers, but I also like some sweet in beers sometimes, but the most important for me is a Clean beer....So I have to check on fermentation temp to be low.


By the way, tomorrow I will be brewing a Sam Adams Boston Lager, I have found several recipe, and it is the one that I will be following;

For 5Gl batch. OG 1.054 / 29 IBU / 16 EBC / 6% ABV

11.61 Lb Pale Malt
0.53 lb Caramel 60L

1.23oz Hersbrucker 4% - 30 min
1.23oz Tettnager 4% - 30 min
0.98oz Hersbrucker 4% - 10 min
0.98oz Hersbrucker 4% - 0 min
Whirfloc at 15 min
Yeast Saflager W34/70 with an starter of 2L on a stir plate for 36 hours.

--------------
Mash 150º for 75minutes - No protein rest, no mash out

I will cold wort to 43º, pitch the yeast at 43º and increase the temp to 48º.
I will ferment for 3 or 4 weeks and then cold crash, keg and force carbonation.

Any comments for my recipe???

 

[Bassman2003]

Well, clean is also related to the yeast... 34/70 is a pretty clean yeast but it does impart a "German" flavor. When I think if clean yeasts, on the ale side it is WLP 001 - California Ale. The beer is left pretty open for ingredients & hops to shine through.

When I think of Sam Adams, I think it is kind of in-between lager and ale. In this case you might want to ferment at your original 54f if making the clone is a priority. Or ferment at 48f for a cleaner beer.

Why no mashout? I always raise the mash to 172f which makes it easier to get the liquid out.

 

[kstiglich]

I think I will prioritize on doing a clean beer instead of cloning a beer, so I will ferment at 48f.

Regarding the cleanest yeast, the problem that I have living in southamerica, is that I have to buy my yeast by Internet and ship everything by air cargo...I guess they bring everything in the lower part of the airplane at temperatures below -22f, so I have no problem with dry yeast, but when tried with any liquid yeast they do not work at all.

I am following a recipe that specify not mashing out, I have no reasons for this...This is my 9th batch, and I am still learning a lot...so I try to do strange things just to understand its behaviour..

I do not understand your point of getting liquids out...I believe that mash out was mainly to stop any enzymes works increasing the temp of the grains??

By the way, I am brewing with a Braumeister 20L, and for this recipe, I will not follow any mash by steps temps...I will try to replicate a one temp infusion...so I will mash my grain in water @ 158f to mash @ 150f.

 

[Bassman2003]

Mashing out does effect enzymes but it also makes the wort thinner so your sparge is easier. Your system says it is designed for easy step mashes, so I would explore step mashing if you are interested. Kai has a lot of information on step mashing on his site as well.

Remember that recipes from homebrewers often are based upon the system or method of that brewer. Since you have a self contained system, you can act like a commercial brewer and dial in anything you wish. For lagers I always do a "Hoch-Kurz" style German mash. I mash in at 133F, rest at 145F, rest at 160F, raise to 172F and drain.

For English ales I mash in at 133F, rest at 152F, raise to 172 and drain. For Hefeweizen I do more steps. But I like to do this. If you read one of my recipes you might think "why do all of this step mashing?" Always adapt to your method of brewing.

 

[kstiglich]

Hi, after a day brewing my Sam Adams Boston Lager, I followed a fermentation schema that I found on kaiser page...
I finished my brew, and cold it to 70f with an immersion chiller, then move into carboy and cold crash it to 34f for 6 hours. Then I warm it to 43f and also temp my yeast to 43f last night.

Today I just pitched the yeast at 43f and now I am warming the beer to 48f, and will let it ferment at that temperature.

This is the pic of the wort after cold crashing it.

And my yeast starter.

And finally, the beer at the freeze...set at 48f...hope it start fermenting in the next 48 hours....

 

[Bassman2003]

Cool. Keep us updated as goes on. Hope it turns out well.

That is a lot of "stuff" in the bottom of your wort. Does the Braumeister kick all of that out?

 

[kstiglich]

I cold the wort to 70f and it has some clumps on suspension. I used whirfloc, so I think it helps joining most proteins in clumps... After brewing, I transferred wort to carboy and I had some times with clear wort and some times with "hazed" beer.... and finally I had a wort with some clouds of clumps flying around my wort...
I believe that next time, I will do the same, but after cold crashing wort close to 34f I will transfer from carboy to carboy to avoid most sediments....

It is a picture of my configuration...

And this is my large chest freeze with many ALE's today....

 

[kstiglich]

Just to keep you updated. After 24 hours, it had a thin Krausen, but today, after 48 hours since pitched, it has a great Krausen and is fermenting at 48f.

 

[Bassman2003]

Great. I am sure you will like it!

 

[kstiglich]

Now that we have an agreement that best way is to stay in primary for 3 or 4 weeks...I would like to know your thoughts about progress evaluation of the beer... I mean....
1) It is very ease to check on beer fermentation progress by visual inspection including;
a) Counting the fermentation bubbles in airlock....
b) Visual inspection of beer color, activity and flocuation
2) But I am concern make gravity readings because if I open the airlock to make a gravity read, I will let CO2 escape, and if the fermentation is finishing, there will be less yeast to take the oxygen that is entering into the carboy head space, thus increasing the risk for oxydation....

Considering that I plan to keep my beer in the primary for 3 weeks, I do not want to open my airlock for any reason, anyway I am watching it is having a great progress.....
But the other question is what happens if I wait for 3 weeks and it was on 1.015!!!

What are your thoughts????
I guess simplest answer is to make gravity readings...so what about oxygen and oxydation??

 

[kstiglich]

Hi Guys,
First of all, just to let you know that my Lager is running perfect.... It is on its first week and yeast is working great!
Just a question regarding lagering....Lagering is just for clarifying the beer?, considering that all yeast strains will go dormant at any layering temp, thus lagering is just for clarify and it should be replace by gelatin or filtering the beer.... if decided for lagering, time will depend on the temperature of lagering, taking less time at 32º and more time to lager at 40º.....
I have this question because I read some recommendations to cold the beer after fermentation and conditioning to lager temp slowly to keep the yeast working during layering, but if layering at 32º I understand that yeast will be dormant, or lager yeast should be working but VERY VERY SLOWLY??

Please any confirmation of these statements would be appreciated.

Regards,

 

[passedpawn]

Just a question regarding lagering....Lagering is just for clarifying the beer?, considering that all yeast strains will go dormant at any layering temp, thus lagering is just for clarify and it should be replace by gelatin or filtering the beer.... if decided for lagering, time will depend on the temperature of lagering, taking less time at 32º and more time to lager at 40º.....
I have this question because I read some recommendations to cold the beer after fermentation and conditioning to lager temp slowly to keep the yeast working during layering, but if layering at 32º I understand that yeast will be dormant, or lager yeast should be working but VERY VERY SLOWLY??

Please any confirmation of these statements would be appreciated.

Regards,

here you go

A thought on your lagering procedure: lagering primarily accomplishes two things: reduction of diacetyl and clearing the beer. Lagering at warm temps (i.e., 70F) reduces the diacetyl much more quickly than when stored at 32F. However, the beer will clear more quickly at the cold temperatures. If you can filter the beer, a better path to lagering is to mature at 70F for 2 or 3 weeks, then filter. This is what I do with pilsners and octoberfest. Much faster, I think, and I believe it's what the big breweries do, even the ones in Germany.

 

[kstiglich]

Hi passedpawn,

It is part of my confusion. Can we "lager" at warm temps like 70f? I believed that layering implies cold temp. If you take your beer to 70f, I understand that you are conditioning your beer, but lagering.....

So my understanding is:
Conditioning: Yeast must clean byproducts, so it must be performed on a temperature where yeast would be active..and depending on the conditioning temperature, it would be low or fast....

Lagering: It will put all yeast to sleep, and this must be done at lower temps to allow precipitation of proteins, yeast, and anything else to let the beer to clarify..

??

 

[passedpawn]

Hi passedpawn,

It is part of my confusion. Can we "lager" at warm temps like 70f? I believed that layering implies cold temp. If you take your beer to 70f, I understand that you are conditioning your beer, but lagering.....

So my understanding is:
Conditioning: Yeast must clean byproducts, so it must be performed on a temperature where yeast would be active..and depending on the conditioning temperature, it would be low or fast....

Lagering: It will put all yeast to sleep, and this must be done at lower temps to allow precipitation of proteins, yeast, and anything else to let the beer to clarify..

??

I don't like to use those terms. So, I'll just say that I ferment at 50F, then after a few weeks I raise the temperature to 62F to get rid of the diacytl quickly (2 more weeks). Then it's time for clearing. Getting it really cold for as long as possible is the best way. I get it really cold for only a couple of days, then filter.

I guess I don't "lager"; i.e., I don't store my beer with the intention of clearing it. I filter it.

With these steps I believe I get the correct flavor and clarity of the lager.

 

[passedpawn]

If you can't filter, then get then after a week of diacetyl rest, get the beer to 30F and leave it there for as long as possible.

 

[Bassman2003]

Now that we have an agreement that best way is to stay in primary for 3 or 4 weeks...I would like to know your thoughts about progress evaluation of the beer... I mean....
1) It is very ease to check on beer fermentation progress by visual inspection including;
a) Counting the fermentation bubbles in airlock....
b) Visual inspection of beer color, activity and flocuation
2) But I am concern make gravity readings because if I open the airlock to make a gravity read, I will let CO2 escape, and if the fermentation is finishing, there will be less yeast to take the oxygen that is entering into the carboy head space, thus increasing the risk for oxydation....

Considering that I plan to keep my beer in the primary for 3 weeks, I do not want to open my airlock for any reason, anyway I am watching it is having a great progress.....
But the other question is what happens if I wait for 3 weeks and it was on 1.015!!!

What are your thoughts????
I guess simplest answer is to make gravity readings...so what about oxygen and oxydation??

My thoughts are kind of simple, but true. If your lager beer has been in fermentation for 3-4 weeks, all that is going to happen has happened. The reason many say to keep it in the primary for 3-4 weeks is because these known lager yeasts will get everything done that they need to get done in that time period. As long as you pitched enough yeast on the way in and it started just fine, you could happily move on to the next phase even without checking gravity.

For a normal gravity ale this period is 2-3 weeks unless you are brewing a Belgian attenuation monster...

Regarding lagering, The German brewers regard this step as very crucial to develop the qualities of a lager beer. Weihenstephan has conducted a lot of experiments and concluded -2 degrees is the optimum temperature with a ratio of degrees plato and weeks in the lagering tank. Generally 6 weeks is regarded as a minimum.

It is different for commercial breweries as they clarify the beer with equipment. For us homebrewers, clarifying is getting particles to settle and taking the liquid off of the top hoping to leave the "stuff" behind. So for us, lagering also serves as a clarifying step because the cold temperature knocks the particles down out of suspension.

We don't have a lot of storage tanks like large breweries, so homebrewers have to make compromises. For me, I use my keg as the lagering tank because I only have one fermentation fridge. I do not want to tie it up for 2-3 months just with the lager. So it is 3-4 weeks in the primary with an end in the low temps straight into my keg where it can sit in my serving fridge for as long as I can stay away from it. Not the best, but it works for me.