Fermentation closet.

[cameronsto]

I've been contemplating this for awhile and want to make sure I'm not missing anything. I've done a few searches but haven't found anybody that's done exactly this.

I have a closet off the garage that I'm wanting to turn into a fermentation/cellaring closet. Living in the South, the temperature swings wildly so I'm wanting to air condition and heat (Summer/Winter) the closet to control the temperature for fermentation and also be used as a beer cellar. I've thought about using an old fridge, but it won't give me the space I'm wanting.

Here is my current setup and the proposed location of a window air conditioner.

My questions and concerns are:

• Using a temperature controller, will I be able control the temperature enough, limiting the temperature change to a couple degrees?
• Should I be concerned about venting the A/C into the garage?
• Should I be concerned about the water heater being in the same room (HW in the diagram above)?
• Am I missing another reason not to do this?

Thanks.

Cameron

 

[homebeerbrewer]

I'm not an expert, but I can give you my $0.02.

• I'd insulate the heck out of the room. That way, you shouldn't have an issue with keeping temps.
• Venting the AC into the garage will cause carbon monoxide... no, wait, something else causes that. The only thing coming out of the AC on the hot side is hot air. Not a problem.
• The water heater could be used to warm the room in the winter. You may want to insulate the heck out of that too for the summer.

 

[cameronsto]

I have no clue as to how well the room is insulated now. I know the floor isn't (it's a crawl space) but the ceiling is. I can't think of a way to check for insulation without cutting into each wall which I guess I'll just have to do.

The water heater barely puts off any heat. It's cool to the touch and in the winter it wouldn't keep the room warm with the door closed. This could be due to poor or no insulation though.

The air conditioner should remove humidity from the room so I shouldn't have to worry about condensation right? I plan on sticking with ales for a while so I'll only be keeping the room at around 65 degrees F.

Thanks for the reply.

-Cameron

 

[homebeerbrewer]

The air conditioner should remove humidity from the room so I shouldn't have to worry about condensation right?

Oh yeah, I forgot, there could be condensation dripping out from the hot side too, so that's another thing coming out of the AC unit besides hot air. As long as you have a floor that can get wet, or some way to collect the moister, it shouldn't be a problem. Once you get the humidity out of the room, you shouldn't have much though.

I take it the inside walls are drywalled? You may have to pull all that down to insulate it. Unless you use blown in insulation. You'll probably be cutting a hole for the AC unit, so that would be the time to check for any insulation in the walls.

 

[SweetSounds]

You could frame out another wall over the existing one. Insulate the holy crap out of it, and you'll have 8" of insulation (assuming the existing wall is insulated)

Is the water heater gas or electric? If it's gas, it's got to be vented. If it's vented, it'll be pumping expensive cold air out of the room in the summer. In fact, I'm not sure I'd put a gas water heater in a sealed room - Sounds dangerous...

OTOH you could move the water heater to the garage. It's not too difficult to run 2 water pipes and electric or flex gas line. I had to move mine when I bought my house because it was in the way of the projector in the theater. PEX tubing makes it even easier

 

[homebeerbrewer]

SweetSounds, I hadn't thought about the water heater being gas, but since it's been installed in a closet sized room, I'm assuming it's electric. And yes, moving it out would be a good idea, makes more room for more fermentation vessels.

BTW, you need to start brewing. Having all those taps serving air is a waste.

 

[SweetSounds]

SweetSounds, I hadn't thought about the water heater being gas, but since it's been installed in a closet sized room, I'm assuming it's electric. And yes, moving it out would be a good idea, makes more room for more fermentation vessels.

BTW, you need to start brewing. Having all those taps serving air is a waste.

I know!!! I've been slacking on the brewing to plan the AG rig...
I'm going to try maybe tonight to get a blonde going. And I've got an Imperial Stout kit ready to go too. But the IIPA and the Stout are both 3 month secondaries - Not too good for filling up the pipeline! The blonde could be ready in 5 or 6 weeks though I killed my pipeline with the Florida trip a few weeks ago - 15 gallons in 5 days, Gone...

I'm definitely behind

 

[wyzazz]

The air conditioner is going to make your water heater work harder, I'd insulate that water heater and line the walls in that closet with insulation panels. The only other thing that I can think of is that your garage is going to be hella hot in the summer!!!

 

[cameronsto]

The water heater is gas. It's vented through the ceiling which I'm a little concerned about, but since cold air sinks and hot air rises, I don't know how much of an issue it will be.

I'm torn between tearing down the walls to check/install insulation and just putting an A/C in the wall to see how it does. "If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right"...but I want to brew!

-Cameron

 

[rcrabb22]

Check out this thread, https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/my-latest-project-walk-cooler-11440/

Also a search on the forum for walkin or fermentation chamber will yield a host of threads on other solutions

 

[homebeerbrewer]

Yeah, you're gonna need to take the water heater out. It shouldn't be in a closet sized room to begin with. Would you be able to move it into the garage? Or, if the laundry room is bigger than the closet, you can just relocate it on the other side of the wall.

 

[cameronsto]

Is the concern regarding the water heater due to gas leaking into a closed room (potentially) or due to the heat it will give off and counteracting the A/C?

I never really gave it a second thought that it was in the closet. It seems to have been in there since the house was built 30 years ago. I doubt it's against code and when I moved in 6 years ago the inspector didn't say a thing about it.

-Cameron

 

[homebeerbrewer]

It's not about the heat or gas, it's about the fumes. If it's not vented properly, CO can be produced, and not being vented means that CO will build up, possibly leaking into living areas. It was probably within code 30 years ago, but I bet it wouldn't be now. The inspector probably wouldn't say anything since it was within code when it was installed, but if you were to build something similar today, he'd make you move it out. If it was me, I'd move it into the garage. Not only will it be safer out there, but it'll give you more room for fermentation.

 

[thedude00]

I was looking to do the same thing in a small closet i have it should be able to fix 2 to three buckets.

I was going to make a box with insulation then get a small pc fan and place 2l bottles with ice place in on top of the buckets and the fan would move cool air around in the box. My house stays at 70 to 73 all the time so i was thinking with a box of insulation and ice bottles i should be able to keep the temp to near 60 to 65 the best themp for ales

 

[BrewBeemer]

I see it as a safety issue with an enclosed room having the HW heater plus adding static pressure to the room from the AC unit with interfering with the draft draw up the chimmey flue. You'll alter the static pressure in the room and how the flue was designed. The added heat off the HW heater not counting the safety from the combustion gas scares the hell out of me and my life I wouldn't do it as well I bet it would be illegal.
I would move the heater into the garage but it must be elevated to meet code, move it once right.

 

[Jason4run]

I second BrewBeemer's comment. I work for a mechanical engineering firm and that is something we need to look out for in our designs.

Having said that, if it happens to be a sealed-combustion water heater, you won't have a problem. Are there two pipes going through the roof with one of them plastic? If so, you might have a sealed combustion unit. If there is only one, then you do not and you don't want it in a small room like that.

 

[cameronsto]

There's only one pipe going into the ceiling. Is that not a vent for the fumes?

Would a tankless water heater have the same problem? If I'm going to move it or do anything I'd probably go to one of those.

Thanks for all the comments.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Depends if it's gas or electric with a tankless WH, they are not cheap I know that. Yes gas fired your back to where you started with the proper venting as well the WH rooms static air pressure. Just mover the esisting WH into the garage on the other side of the wall, not much required in replumbing it except the 18" platform I recall as the standard by code unless it's been changed. This would be a win win, no heating of your room, safety factor plus gained space.

 

[homebeerbrewer]

I like the moving the water heater idea, but you could go electric and leave it in the room. But that would require running the appropriate electric service into the room. Also, you won't be gaining the space left by the vacant water heater.

... Just another option.

 

[DevilsCreekBrewing]

OK. My preface to the wall of text I am going to type. I am a TSSA licensed Gas 3 Tech, and am in school right now for plumbing. From what I have seen, Canadian Codes are as stringent, or more so, than State Codes, except California. What I lay out may not be the Code for you area, but it will be safe.

1st. Combustion products, or 'fumes' (as has been said in this thread) are vented through the vent you see at the top of the unit. They do not get vented to the atmosphere around the unit. Water Heaters with a vent stack, and an ABS pipe are high efficiency condensing units. Unless this Water Heater is also a combo heating unit, it is not spillage-susceptible, and there is no fear of CO2 in the area, assuming the unit is in good repair, without cracks or other damage to the combustion chamber or heat exchange.

2nd. Water Heaters are often installed in spaces smaller than what you have shown. Many condos have a small closet that has the Water Heater, Water Softener etc. The requirements for installation list a minimum clearance from combustibles, discharge piping and vent sizing. As long as these are met, the area of the space is immaterial. For instance this Water Heater at Home Depot is a 36,000 BTU unit. Based on CAN/CSA B149.1-05 (Natural Gas and Propane Installation Code) this unit only requires 4 sq in of free area duct, or 2 in dia round duct.

So, that out of the way, I wouldn't relocate the Water Heater, I wouldn't buy a new one, and I wouldn't worry about the AC unit not working well because of the Water Heater. Insulate the tank of the unit if you haven't already. Make sure you have 4 sq in of venting, and enjoy your cold room.

 

[cameronsto]

Woohoo! Thank you DevilsCreekBrewing. That's what I wanted to hear!

Just so there's no confusion...here's the water heater and it's vent setup:

DevilsCreekBrewing, does anything in my photo contradict what you've already posted? If not I have an A/C lined up for this weekend and just may punch the hole in the wall right after.

Thanks guys.

Cameron

 

[BrewBeemer]

Adding a positive pressure to the room from the AC fan will be equal at the chimney hat gap above the HW heater as well the burner but lower being the vent outside the house isn't under this slight pressure increase. My thinking this may cause the flue vent gas velocity to increase. My questions, will this added pressure cause the heated exhaust gases inside the HW heater to be pulled faster than it's designed under equal pressures conditions plus will this add wasted heat energy? this a legal build and design practice? This is out of my job background but i'll add these questions.

 

[Jason4run]

That is an atmospheric burner...The A/C unit might blow out the flame. Also, it could interfere with the combustion and possible cause carbon monoxide problems. If it were my house, I would definitely NOT keep the water heater in the room with the A/C unit.

 

[DevilsCreekBrewing]

DevilsCreekBrewing, does anything in my photo contradict what you've already posted?

Without seeing the rest of the room, I really have no way to say. I don't see any venting in that picture. Ensure you have proper venting, any louvered vents reduce the effective size, 25-30% reduction for metal, and 75-80% reduction for wood. I wouldn't use any open area in the air conditioner as part of the calculation. I may not have been clear enough in my first post, I am referring here to a hole in the wall that allows air into the room containing the HW Heater. It needs to allow incoming air for combustion.

@ Brewbeemer, I think you are right about the velocity change when the AC unit will run. I also think that with the close to air tight houses now, there is a similar effect when a house AC unit kicks in. Without a velometer reading, I truly don't know what the difference would be. There will be heat energy loss when cooling the room, that is a given, but from the original post, there isn't an intent to make a fridge in this room, just to level the temp out.

 

[homebeerbrewer]

DevelsCreek, you obviously know much more than I do about this subject, but I think that the OP want's to control the temp in the room for fermentation. That would be hard to do with vents large enough to supply an adequate air supply for the burner, don't you think?

 

[homebeerbrewer]

cameronsto, looking back at your diagram, how large of an area is your laundry room? Is it bigger than the closet the water heater is in now? And the pic of the water heater shows pipes going through the wall, is it safe to assume that the pipes lead to the laundry room?

 

[DevilsCreekBrewing]

DevelsCreek, you obviously know much more than I do about this subject, but I think that the OP want's to control the temp in the room for fermentation. That would be hard to do with vents large enough to supply an adequate air supply for the burner, don't you think?

Nope. Again, the OP says control within a few degrees, not turning it into a fridge.

 

[cameronsto]

DevilsCreekBrewing is correct, I am wanting to use the closet for fermentation/cellaring but at ale fermentation temps, so mid 60s.

DevilsCreekBrewing, there is no other vent in the closet. I hadn't even thought about incoming air for combustion...

homebeerbrewer, the laundry room is roughly the same size: 9'6"x8'4" The pipes don't go into the laundry room, they must go down into the crawlspace and throughout the house from there.

 

[erkwist]

I have to give you a proper thanks for the idea, got a small basement, but a huge crawl space off of it, and a corner thats perfect to enclose into a fermentation chamber. I LOVE THESE FORUMS!!!!!!

 

[cameronsto]

So are we back to "this is a bad idea"?

-Cameron